TD bank employees admit to breaking the law for fear of being fired

[albertGQ]

To elaborate on Slava's point, my neighbor has been a labourer his entire life doing home renovations. He was recently laid off and couldn't even get a job at Winners.

But weeks later, he is now a financial advisor for World Financial Group.

Seriously???

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

To elaborate on Slava's point, my neighbor has been a labourer his entire life doing home renovations. He was recently laid off and couldn't even get a job at Winners.

But weeks later, he is now a financial advisor for World Financial Group.

Seriously???

Your neighbour tries to recruit you in 3-2-1.

WFG is Primerica on steroids.

[JackJack]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

To elaborate on Slava's point, my neighbor has been a labourer his entire life doing home renovations. He was recently laid off and couldn't even get a job at Winners.

But weeks later, he is now a financial advisor for World Financial Group.

Seriously???

Those guys are a scam. As soon as I was laid off, I had an advisor reach out to me on LinkedIn wanting to meet for coffee about an amazing opportunity that was meant just for me.

I did some research and found that it was bogus.

What's amazing is how they know you've been laid off. They must be sourcing their data list from a one of those job placement agencies that companies set you up with.

[troutman]

'We are all doing it': Employees at Canada's 5 big banks speak out about pressure to dupe customers
Calls for parliamentary inquiry following Go Public investigation

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bank...blic-1.4023575

TD Bank shares post worst day since 2009 after CBC story
Bank analyst notes TD's 'Wells Fargo moment' as reaction to CBC story reverberates

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/td-b...rice-1.4019822

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Your neighbour tries to recruit you in 3-2-1.

WFG is Primerica on steroids.

Hes probably already leaving pamphlets around. Those guys are ruthless!

"Howdy Neighbour! Crazy weather we're having huh? The Temperature increased by 18.6%, you know what didnt increase by 18.6%? Your retirement savings! Come on over for a beer and we can fix that right up. Disregard the chair with conspicuous ropes and other bindings...."

[MoneyGuy]

Enoch, I disagree with your contention that having no dealer improves compliance. I'm with the same dealer as Slava and we have one of the most stringent compliance regimes in the business. I personally know several advisors who have left because of this. In fact it's getting more strict. I don't see how eliminating the dealer is an improvement. We have that extra layer of oversight that takes its responsibility very seriously. We have three layers - advisor ethics, dealer and regulators, while you're advocating for only two. I know you have a different system than ours.

[codfather]

Originally Posted by troutman

'We are all doing it': Employees at Canada's 5 big banks speak out about pressure to dupe customers
Calls for parliamentary inquiry following Go Public investigation

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bank...blic-1.4023575

I was waiting to see this. As others have already mentioned in this thread, this issue wasn't limited to TD. I worked for one of the big 5 for five years in various roles. My experience was very similar to what Curves2000 mentioned and I ended up quitting because the stress wasn't worth it and hypocrisy from managment was too much. Constant talk of "needs based selling" when what they meant was you had to create that need for the client regardless of whether it was right for the client or not. I've had several former colleagues quit, some without having another job lined up just because they needed out. One person wasn't hitting their targets and was demoted to teller. He quit on the spot. It's no longer about financial advice, it's about sales.

From the above linked cbc article:

"We get weekly emails that highlight in red the people who are not hitting those sales targets. It's bullying."

That was a big thing at the bank I worked at. Every category and every person was listed from top to bottom in the district. Must have been pretty demoralizing for the people at the bottom.

[troutman]

I noticed today on a statement that I owe $20 on a LOC that I never used or wanted.

[MoneyGuy]

delete

[troutman]

Originally Posted by codfather

That was a big thing at the bank I worked at. Every category and every person was listed from top to bottom in the district. Must have been pretty demoralizing for the people at the bottom.

Have I got your attention now? Good. Cause we're adding a little something to this month's sales contest. As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.

[edslunch]

There was a good discussion on CBC last night. We need to separate illegal practices from basic sales practices. Things like quotas and sorted lists of sales people are pretty common practice in a sales environment. Maybe some tellers thought they were signing up to be tellers and not sales people?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by edslunch

There was a good discussion on CBC last night. We need to separate illegal practices from basic sales practices. Things like quotas and sorted lists of sales people are pretty common practice in a sales environment. Maybe some tellers thought they were signing up to be tellers and not sales people?

Right - most of us are selling some kind of product or service, and upselling is always part of that. If you come to me for a Will, I will also tell you about the Power of Attorney and Personal Directive.

[8sPOT]

Main reason I left banking 5 years ago was this whole practice.

When I started in 2005 the mindset really was about figuring out what works best for your clients, and I really did enjoy that. Whether it was credit cards, mutual funds, GIC's, whatever, I was given the task of finding the best fit for each person.

Then right after the big collapse in 2008 there was an obvious and not at all subtle mindset change where now its about selling. Everyone that sells this credit card with this insurance gets 25 bank points. It became less and less about your clients and more about selling certain products in order to achieve your goal and get your extra $1,000 bonus at the end of the year.

I think the big banks need to reinvent themselves just like Walmart has. Put the focus back on your customers and you'll still make insane profits while actually building a relationship.

None of this is surprising to me. Even the illegal stuff of increasing credit limits without consent. That's all you hear when in banking is sales and goals and targets. When a client comes in you're already thinking of how to make sure they get that new VISA or put them in a certain mutual fund. I found it so uncomfortable and slimy I quit and never looked back.

[codfather]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Even the illegal stuff of increasing credit limits without consent. That's all you hear when in banking is sales and goals and targets. When a client comes in you're already thinking of how to make sure they get that new VISA or put them in a certain mutual fund. I found it so uncomfortable and slimy I quit and never looked back.

This was my experience too and around the same time period.

The funny/scary thing is that the illegal stuff isn't even a new phenomenon. Back around 2001 I called my bank (telephone banking) to see about an increase to my student line of credit. I was told that I would have to go into a branch for that. That was fine and left it at that and planned to make a meeting. A couple weeks later I got a credit card in the mail and documents from my bank that I had been approved for overdraft and it had been added to my account. I didn't apply for any of this. I didn't consent to a credit check and yet it was done, likely because this telephone rep needed to sell some stuff... I called and made a complaint and they were supposed to pull the call logs on this. I never did hear back and didn't pursue it myself as I was young and didn't care. I cancelled the card and had to go into the branch to get rid of the overdraft. This was the bank I ended up working for and did a search on my profile and there was my complaint log, sitting as "unresolved"...

In my experience the banks go out of their way to preach "needs based selling" and do teach sales techniques based on this but they also do what they can to look the other way or pretend that illegal practices aren't happening and refuse to acknoweldge that it is partly a product of the outrageous sales targets they put on their staff.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by troutman

Right - most of us are selling some kind of product or service, and upselling is always part of that. If you come to me for a Will, I will also tell you about the Power of Attorney and Personal Directive.

Yes you did. Up selling can be done in a respectful, helpful manner. It sounds like many of these bank employees might just have crappy bosses.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by troutman

Right - most of us are selling some kind of product or service, and upselling is always part of that. If you come to me for a Will, I will also tell you about the Power of Attorney and Personal Directive.

That's not upselling. That's good legal advice.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by troutman

Right - most of us are selling some kind of product or service, and upselling is always part of that. If you come to me for a Will, I will also tell you about the Power of Attorney and Personal Directive.

Of course, an EPA and PD are also pretty essential estate documents... and they are often thrown in with the price of the Will because as MoneyGuy said, that's just providing good advice and protecting your client's best interests.

The issue here is whether the "up sell" is still in your client's best interest, or promoting an arbitrary target and padding a bonus. A bonus in many cases, is necessary to elevate your base to a reasonable level relative to the hours and effort expended.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Enoch, I disagree with your contention that having no dealer improves compliance. I'm with the same dealer as Slava and we have one of the most stringent compliance regimes in the business. I personally know several advisors who have left because of this. In fact it's getting more strict. I don't see how eliminating the dealer is an improvement. We have that extra layer of oversight that takes its responsibility very seriously. We have three layers - advisor ethics, dealer and regulators, while you're advocating for only two. I know you have a different system than ours.

I think you missed my point.

The dealer doesn't add a layer of oversight. I'm not sure how you think you have 3 levels and we have 2. Investment Counsels have the exact same regulatory requirements and processes as a dealer firm like Manulife. (well, to be more precise, they are actually on different platforms and there are some differences, but they are too detailed for this conversation)

The point I was making is that, in the environment that you work under at Manulife - and at any dealer - advisors aren't as directly responsible for compliance and therefore manycan be less understanding of it and less concerned with it. The dealer takes care of it so out of site out of mind. Or it is looked upon as a burden that must be met.

At the ICPM level, that freedom doesn't exist. The practitioners are more directly responsible for their own compliance. That usually results in them being far more understanding of it, and engaged in it.

I am not suggesting that you don't take your compliance seriously. I am saying that it isn't the best platform for what the regulators are trying to achieve, and what we all want, which is a more evenly and appropriately regulated industry. And to have individual advisors more aware of, and more engaged in the regulatory requirements.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Yes but you're missing the point that an unscrupulous advisor would much prefer to be in charge of his own oversight than have a dealer breathing down his neck.

It's actually funny the argument you are making because you are just making assumptions that the dealer removes all responsibility from the advisor. In my experience it is the opposite. Their oversight keeps advisors aware of the regulatory requirements. And you are also assuming that being in charge of their own compliance will just make every advisor more knowledgable of the regulations and follow them. Again, my experience is the opposite.

Either way a dishonest advisor is likely to find ways to skirt the rules. I just think it is easier when they don't have a dealer. My assumption is the dealer is doing their job, which may not always be the case.

[curves2000]

Fascinating conversation for someone such as myself who still has a passion for the industry but felt and still feel a little concered about some of the things I saw. My biggest issue as to why I left was my passion and my personal career trajectory hope was to continue to evolve on the investment, planning and potentially portfolio management side one day.

I was being dragged by by big bank employer into the lending, credit card, bank account and insurance side which was not something I was interested in doing. I excelled in the client service aspect and still maintained my ethics to the highest degree right up until I left.

Enoch Root: I am kind of jumping into the conversation without reading the entire thread but are you referring to something that might be role specific? I am understanding what you are referring to but since I don't have the same experience as someone like you I just wanted to get a better understanding.

What would be different from a client perspective as a IC at an independent firm vs an IC at a major bank's brokerage or private client division?

Or are you referring more along the lines of the differences between an IC vs an investment adviser at a brokerage firm who probably just sells mutual funds with the odd ETF or stock thrown in? It's my understanding that an IC must adhere to the IPS for the client where as with an investment adviser there is a lot more room for some of the disaster's I am sure we have all witnessed.

If I am am not understanding competently I apologize but I am really intrigued by this thread and conversation as a whole.


Thx