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Old 07-13-2017, 03:08 PM   #41
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So what you're saying is that if you don't know what a guy does other than his title, then he is free from critique?
Another way to ask the same question is, "If you don't understand the subject, then he is free from critique?" To which I would respond, "No, but you are probably not in a position to offer any actual criticism."

What I am saying is that any criticism which stems from an inkling or an instinct about how the coach is performing is weak and easily dismissed. If we are unable to identify the intricacies in Sigalet's job performance then we are dependent upon the opinions of expert observers. If there are no published expert opinions one way or the other about Sigalet's handling of Flames goalies, then the default position is that he must be doing something right to remain employed by the Calgary Flames following a coaching change.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:19 PM   #42
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So what you're saying is that if you don't know what a guy does other than his title, then he is free from critique?
It means if you don't know what you're talking about, your criticisms are not much better than noise.

Criticise away -- but until you have some understanding of what's going wrong, I know I'm not interested. Hell even rumors of dissatisfied former goalies would be something to hang a hat on...
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:02 PM   #43
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I think I have posted this 2 or perhaps 3 times before in the past. This is the one and only single quantifiable shred of insight in Sigalet's work that I have been able to find good or bad.

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/...stment-to.html

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"We always look at the goals that go in to see how I could have given myself a better chance to make the save," said Ramo, who after getting the Flames opening night start, struggled so badly in October he ended up being put on waivers, going unclaimed, and was assigned briefly to Stockton (AHL).

The recommendation was for Ramo to stay further back in his net. While he was reluctant to describe it as a "change" to his playing style, he acknowledges he has made an adjustment.
It seems the same adjustment is in store for Lack.

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"When he first started making the adjustments, he was still thinking about them a little bit too much. It's all muscle memory so we'd work on it a lot in practice," said Sigalet. "Now it's to the point where he doesn't even think about it. In those situations, he knows where he should be in his crease."
With the revolving door of goaltenders lately, and apparently how long it takes goalies to make adjustments, I guess it does make Sigalet's job a bit tougher.

Quote:
Proof that the adjustment has worked can be found in the numbers. At the end of November, Ramo's save percentage was .899 and six times he had surrendered at least four goals. Since the start of December, he's posted a .930 save percentage and given up four goals in a game only once.
Proof that Sigalet's adjustment worked. Also, if Ramo was healthy, I would have loved him back as the backup. I really think he was improving and was a capable starter (i.e. 'average'). He was certainly trending that way, though obviously if he had come cheap and his knee was back to 100%.


If anyone has any other tidbits of insight that we can read, digest, and even dissect, please post them. We as fans probably never, ever see or hear anything to do about what adjustments are being talked about between a goalie and the goalie coach. The only other insight I remember reading about was actually a piece on Marcoux working with Kipper many years ago. That's it.

Until there is some tangible evidence of proof that Sigalet is a poor coach who is adversely affecting Calgary's goalies, I will go by the one and only article with examples that detailed some insight into what he actually did. Everything else is speculation based on some goalies that showed poor numbers, but not a single goalie was a #1 goalie at any time in their career, or were no longer considered a #1 caliber goalie by the time they arrived in Calgary (Hiller).

My personal opinion of Sigalet is "I have no clue what he does except from the above, so that makes 1 positive and 0 negative arguments for him." That's it. I am very willing to change my opinion from positive to negative if anyone has any evidence to the contrary, but nobody seems to provide that.

Also something that I find noteworthy that I haven't seen mentioned (and sorry if someone has already covered it and I missed it) but not a single goalie that left Calgary has said a single bad word about Sigalet as a coach. A few have voiced their displeasure at maybe how Calgary didn't provide them with what they felt was an earned chance, or perhaps they were misused, etc., but not a single whisper of Sigalet not being a good coach. I find that interesting in itself, and it leads me to believe that Sigalet is probably not the problem, and as others have noted, Treliving didn't hesitate to let Ward go in the AHL even though he was immensely popular with the players, fans and media, didn't hesitate to let Hartley go in spite of him winning the Jack Adams just the prior year and also being very popular with the media at least (and a strong contingent of fans), so I see no reason why he would retain Sigalet if Sigalet was not doing a good job.

I am running on the assumption that it is easier to look at the lack of success in net for the Flames and point at one of the only constants, rather than notice that perhaps the goalies themselves were just not very good. Again, I am open to any empirical data - or even comments from prior goalies that have passed through Calgary. Until then, I will just keep assuming that Sigalet is not the problem.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:07 PM   #44
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It means if you don't know what you're talking about, your criticisms are not much better than noise.

Criticise away -- but until you have some understanding of what's going wrong, I know I'm not interested. Hell even rumors of dissatisfied former goalies would be something to hang a hat on...
This sure cuts down on all of the conversation on the board, since 99% of the posters are not NHL level hockey players and obviously don't know what is happening in the dressing room, between coaches/players, etc.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:11 PM   #45
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What I am saying is that any criticism which stems from an inkling or an instinct about how the coach is performing is weak and easily dismissed.
All this says to me is that ANY criticism is 'weak' until someone is fired.

If you want to pretend that all is sunshine and roses then knock yourself out...
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:16 PM   #46
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This sure cuts down on all of the conversation on the board, since 99% of the posters are not NHL level hockey players and obviously don't know what is happening in the dressing room, between coaches/players, etc.
Cuts down on all the conversation? No it doesn't, just criticism of coaches who work behind the scenes. We as posters can judge what's been presented to us on the ice. Players, line combos, etc. That is most of what we talk about.

The stuff we as fans are completely uninformed about are the goalie coaches, video coaches, scouts, minor league coaches, etc. Criticism of them seems completely speculative and uninformed from the fan vantage pint.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:22 PM   #47
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I see...

So we can criticize the PP coach because the PP isn't successful but can't criticize the Goalie coach because the goaltending is poor because we don't know what the goalie coach is doing behind the scenes?

This is a futile argument... essentially it comes down to I think that the goaltending coach is on his last legs and needs to prove himself and you don't. You can disagree, but telling me that I can't criticize isn't going to fly.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:25 PM   #48
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This sure cuts down on all of the conversation on the board, since 99% of the posters are not NHL level hockey players and obviously don't know what is happening in the dressing room, between coaches/players, etc.
You hear a lot more about what a coach is trying to implement though. They get hired, and they speak about what style they want to play. Throughout the season, you hear about adjustments being made (like Gulutzan dummying-down his system a bit). You hear how a coach works with the players (like Ferland's mission every night with his ice time to make 3 hits and get 3 shots on net).

When do you hear anything specific about the goaltenders with regards to what the goaltending coach is doing? That is why it is difficult to assess how competent they are. If there was more information available through the media like we see with the rest of the coaching staff, we could.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:29 PM   #49
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All this says to me is that ANY criticism is 'weak' until someone is fired.

If you want to pretend that all is sunshine and roses then knock yourself out...
Where have I suggested that "all is sunshine and roses"? How convenient of you to ignore the several instances where I have gone on record to say that refusing to vilify Sigalet is not the same thing as defending him.

So, let me put it to you another way: if you believe that Sigalet is having an adverse effect on Flames goalies, then please tell me specifically what it is that you see to that effect. Did Elliott or Johnson struggle with a change in their style that might suggest Sigalet's unwelcome influence?

I am happy to entertain the possibility that he is not a good goaltending coach, but I am not going to simply agree on the basis of simple intuition.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:34 PM   #50
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I see...

So we can criticize the PP coach because the PP isn't successful but can't criticize the Goalie coach because the goaltending is poor because we don't know what the goalie coach is doing behind the scenes?
We can criticise the powerplay when it isn't successful and it is abundantly clear what the reason is. The same thing with goalies and the goalie coach.

Quote:
This is a futile argument... essentially it comes down to I think that the goaltending coach is on his last legs and needs to prove himself and you don't. You can disagree, but telling me that I can't criticize isn't going to fly.
No one is saying that you can't criticise, only that up to this point the critiques have all amounted to vapid speculations about the relationship between Sigalet's job and the numbers produced by Flames goalies. Go ahead and offer something that you see in their performance which can reasonably be attributed to whatever it is or is not that Sigalet is doing. If you really believe that he is a part of the problem, then please tell us why you believe it.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #51
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I see...

So we can criticize the PP coach because the PP isn't successful but can't criticize the Goalie coach because the goaltending is poor because we don't know what the goalie coach is doing behind the scenes?

This is a futile argument... essentially it comes down to I think that the goaltending coach is on his last legs and needs to prove himself and you don't. You can disagree, but telling me that I can't criticize isn't going to fly.
The two don't parallel in the slightest. The powerplay coach chooses the systems and players to utilize. This can be tweaked in game, in period. Players who are looking "off" or "on" in a particular game can be rotated onto or off of the powerplay. The units can change period to period or game to game. The systems can change. The coach has a major and obvious effect on the powerplay.

The goalie coach is there to help the goalies practice and fine tune minor points of their games. As he says in the article he's not making any major tweaks to their game. His influence is subtle and nearly impossible for us to detect. But the responsibility for their performance lays at the feet of the goalie. The goalie coach does not have a controller he uses to control the goalie. He's not making in period adjustments to the goalie.

I think it's pretty easy to see why fans have enough information to criticize in one case and not the other.

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Old 07-13-2017, 06:58 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by calculoso View Post
I see...

So we can criticize the PP coach because the PP isn't successful but can't criticize the Goalie coach because the goaltending is poor because we don't know what the goalie coach is doing behind the scenes?

This is a futile argument... essentially it comes down to I think that the goaltending coach is on his last legs and needs to prove himself and you don't. You can disagree, but telling me that I can't criticize isn't going to fly.
The idea someone is telling you that you cannot speak freely on a message board is silly. I'm just stating I find your opinion uninformed. Take that as you will.

As for your opinion on the power play, I await your analysis.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:56 PM   #53
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After reading that article - Wow, our goaltending prospect pool is STACKED! One of Rittich or Gillies will be backing up Smith in 18/19 and Parsons will be ready for the jump when Smith is done. Set up nice if you ask me.

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Old 07-13-2017, 11:21 PM   #54
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Maybe he was unable to help Johnson because Johnson is not good enough. Maybe Johnson decided that he was more comfortable playing his game and ignored Sigalet's advice. Maybe the problems Johnson was experiencing had nothing at all to do with Sigalet's coaching.

To be clear, no one here is saying that Sigalet is doing a good job, only that there is no good evidence to suggest that he is a poor goaltending coach. I don't think of it so much as "benefit of doubt" as I do a lack of evidence from which to form a conclusion.
I've never seen a performance evaluation based on science. I'm pretty sure before anyone has ever been fired no company has ever carried out a series of variable-controlling experiments.

The results just aren't there. He needs to go

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Old 07-13-2017, 11:27 PM   #55
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I think I will defer to the hockey people in the organization in regards to the staff. I am pretty sure they have a handle on things.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:44 PM   #56
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It means if you don't know what you're talking about, your criticisms are not much better than noise.

Criticise away -- but until you have some understanding of what's going wrong, I know I'm not interested. Hell even rumors of dissatisfied former goalies would be something to hang a hat on...
Meh, that's not how business works. A high level manager has very little knowledge of the details in all the employees under him/her (unless they are a bad micromanager) but nevertheless, people get terminated all the time for whatever reason. Maybe its personality based, maybe its performance based. Maybe its cutting costs or restructuring. The point is, if my owner gave me an objective, and its not met, regardless if my boss didn't quite hear me out or understands the particulars, chances are I still get fired. What boss is ever understanding?

Sigalet's objective is to coach the goalies under his scope so that the goalies may improve the organization. That is deduced by the reasonable knowledge that 1) the organization wishes to improve at every position, 2) Sigalet is assigned to the goalie position. So far there hasn't been many successful examples of improvement at the goalie position. Despite many assets, such as scouts, draft picks, and prospects being put into the goalie position over the years.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:16 AM   #57
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Meh, that's not how business works. A high level manager has very little knowledge of the details in all the employees under him/her (unless they are a bad micromanager) but nevertheless, people get terminated all the time for whatever reason. Maybe its personality based, maybe its performance based. Maybe its cutting costs or restructuring. The point is, if my owner gave me an objective, and its not met, regardless if my boss didn't quite hear me out or understands the particulars, chances are I still get fired. What boss is ever understanding?

Sigalet's objective is to coach the goalies under his scope so that the goalies may improve the organization. That is deduced by the reasonable knowledge that 1) the organization wishes to improve at every position, 2) Sigalet is assigned to the goalie position. So far there hasn't been many successful examples of improvement at the goalie position. Despite many assets, such as scouts, draft picks, and prospects being put into the goalie position over the years.
What goalies have come through the system so far that have been A+ goalie prospects? Sigalet can suggest whatever he wants but unless the goalies can execute in game its all for naught.

As an aside, I have worked under a number of employers who are very understanding of why someone is being let go. Sometimes it is indeed beyond the employees control. Sometimes it is just not meeting expectations.

I think we can assume Sigalet is being evaluated by Treliving, and to date has not been relieved of his duties. To assume you know more than the staff on the Flames is more than presumptuous. It shows, in my opinion, how little you know of what Sigalet actually does, and what exactly, he is supposedly failing at.

I don't claim to have the answers either, but he has apparently done enough thus far to remain employed, and continues to do so for the foreseeable future.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:14 AM   #58
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I find it funny that there's so much pushback against criticizing Sigalet.

Is a goaltending coach really that different from for example a powerplay coach? Fans judge them all the time based on results, yet I don't see all this "how qualified are you to judge anyway".
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:36 AM   #59
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Treliving is about as thoughtful as it gets when it comes to evaluating anyone within the organization. Emotion plays no part. There could not be a better example than Joe Colborne last summer. I think Tre would fire his grandma if he thought it would help.
That Sigalet is still employed indicates that the organization isn't entirely displeased with his body of work, despite what looks like sub standard results.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:50 AM   #60
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I find it funny that there's so much pushback against criticizing Sigalet.

Is a goaltending coach really that different from for example a powerplay coach? Fans judge them all the time based on results, yet I don't see all this "how qualified are you to judge anyway".
The power play we can criticize personal, structure, zone entry, pace, etc. These are specific critiques. Then we can debate if it is players or coaches. And if the coach is doing a poor or good job. If all we had was the PP% to go on we would be in the same boat as with the goalie coach.

So criticizing sigalet because Chad Johnson was consistently beat glove side or that Elliot wasn't mentally prepared are reasonable criticisms that we can debate whether it is coach or player. Saying Sigalet is bad because of our goaltending results is not supported any evidence. If you can point to a goalie who excelled after like Dubnyk then you would have a case.

I think Lack is a good test. If he returns to his carreer average numbers one can argue that sigalet fixed him. If Elliot has a career year and good playoff performance and no long dry spells we can argue that Sigalet broke him.
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