Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 07-14-2017, 07:30 AM   #61
Erick Estrada
Franchise Player
 
Erick Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
I find it funny that there's so much pushback against criticizing Sigalet.

Is a goaltending coach really that different from for example a powerplay coach? Fans judge them all the time based on results, yet I don't see all this "how qualified are you to judge anyway".
A power play coach is actually drawing up the scheme, set-up, etc while a goaltender coach is more advisory looking over tape and suggesting tweaks, helping get them mentally prepared. If the power play stinks for a long duration you can point to the power play coach not making adjustments and having bad schemes but if the goaltending stinks you have to consider the maybe he's just not that good. My issue of course is that almost every goaltender Treliving has brought in has played worse for the Flames than their career norm which points to the issues being deeper than just the goaltenders. It's hard on the outside to find much in the way of positive input he's added to any Flames goaltenders since his arrival seeing they almost all perform worse than their career average for the team. Again he's not THE problem but to me at least he hasn't been part of the solution and IMO that's indisputable as we have seen a lot of goaltenders games improve under the tutelage of goaltending coaches. That's not happening here at all and if he can't assist them to play better I have to question why he still has his job as like everything else in professional sports his job should be results based.
__________________
RIP Al Davis / 1929 - 2011

Last edited by Erick Estrada; 07-14-2017 at 07:33 AM.
Erick Estrada is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Erick Estrada For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2017, 08:14 AM   #62
MarkGio
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
A power play coach is actually drawing up the scheme, set-up, etc while a goaltender coach is more advisory looking over tape and suggesting tweaks, helping get them mentally prepared. If the power play stinks for a long duration you can point to the power play coach not making adjustments and having bad schemes but if the goaltending stinks you have to consider the maybe he's just not that good. My issue of course is that almost every goaltender Treliving has brought in has played worse for the Flames than their career norm which points to the issues being deeper than just the goaltenders. It's hard on the outside to find much in the way of positive input he's added to any Flames goaltenders since his arrival seeing they almost all perform worse than their career average for the team. Again he's not THE problem but to me at least he hasn't been part of the solution and IMO that's indisputable as we have seen a lot of goaltenders games improve under the tutelage of goaltending coaches. That's not happening here at all and if he can't assist them to play better I have to question why he still has his job as like everything else in professional sports his job should be results based.
Look at this double standard: when a goalie fails, it's the player. When a power play fails, it's the coach, not the players. What do you expect, the power play coach to crawl inside the minds of 5 players and make them perform?

B..b......But wait, we haven't conducted conclusive experiments to determine if the power play coach is actually doing all those things who say he does and if he hasn't performed as you say he does! Like c'mon people. For all we know Ken King and oownership called all the shots under Daryl Sutter, and we knew absolutely nothing about what Sutter did all day, yet people called for his head.

It's simple, either any one of us can criticize from a far -- and that applies to all franchise personnel -- Or none of us can. This whole "walk 15 miles in another's shoes" is not the job of fans on a message board. Our job is to shake fists at the clouds because ultimately that's all we can do.
MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MarkGio For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2017, 09:39 AM   #63
Wild GM
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Exp:
Default

For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
Wild GM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:54 AM   #64
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild GM View Post
For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
In totally agree. The thing about special teams is that they tend to run hot and cold for every team all season, and then teams will often experience huge swings in their season-by-season ranking every year. I think failures and successes of a team's powerplay are products of randomness to a large degree.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:57 AM   #65
Gaudfather
#1 Goaltender
 
Gaudfather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild GM View Post
For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
It is fair to criticize the power play when it comes to personnel usage.

More Ferly, less Brouwer!
Gaudfather is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Gaudfather For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2017, 10:28 AM   #66
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild GM View Post
For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
In totally agree. The thing about special teams is that they tend to run hot and cold for every team all season, and then teams will often experience huge swings in their season-by-season ranking every year. I think failures and successes of a team's powerplay are products of randomness to a large degree.
I don't really disagree, but my point was really that you don't get the same kind of pushback when people criticize other coaches. Some, but not to the same amount and not with the same tone. I don't really see a reason for it. Sigalet is one of the coaches, and as fans we are constantly asking who is doing their job and who is not. Granted we don't usually talk about the goalie coach because his job is less visible, but I don't see how that makes a difference. A coach is a coach.

I think everyone acknowledges that fan criticism is what it is, often poorly informed one way or another. However, it's what fan forums are all about. As fans we like to talk about our teams, even when we might be terribly wrong.
__________________
A threat that brings you pancakes is still a threat.
Itse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:33 AM   #67
sempuki
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
B..b......But wait, we haven't conducted conclusive experiments
What part of "criticize away, I just find your criticisms uninformed" do you not understand?

You're arguing a straw man in the fullest meaning of the phrase. You don't like the coach, I don't like your argument. We've made our opinions and shared them. Outrage and persecution complex is not required. If you think your opinion is better than a random feeling that he should be held accountable, make a better argument.
sempuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:40 AM   #68
sempuki
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
I don't really disagree, but my point was really that you don't get the same kind of pushback when people criticize other coaches.
That's not true.

Here's how you criticize a PP coach: "putting a winger on the point exposes us to SH goals."

Here's how you criticize a goal coach: "playing too deep in the net exposes shorter goalies to high shots".

Please show us your criticism of any coach.
sempuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:59 AM   #69
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sempuki View Post
That's not true.

Here's how you criticize a PP coach: "putting a winger on the point exposes us to SH goals."

Here's how you criticize a goal coach: "playing too deep in the net exposes shorter goalies to high shots".

Please show us your criticism of any coach.
...and there you go enforcing my point because you obviously missed my point.

People don't create these ridiculous and arbitrary standards to measure what is is "acceptable" criticism when it comes to fans talking about other coaches. Yet for some reason with Sigalet there's suddenly a ton of people playing criticism police.

Here's my criticism of Sigalet: there's nothing suggesting he's very good at his job. He's worked with quite a few goalies in the short time he's worked either in the AHL or in the NHL. None have improved, many have lapsed. He might be pretty good, he might be pretty bad, I don't know. But I really can't believe he's too good to replace with the track record that he has. It's not an original opinion, but you asked so there it is.

However, I don't care much. I do however find the discussion weird and unpleasant. Why are so many so aggressive about the perceived lack of quality criticism?

It's a fan forum. Go work for a hockey organization if you want to be surrounded by professional opinions.
__________________
A threat that brings you pancakes is still a threat.
Itse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 11:14 AM   #70
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
...Here's my criticism of Sigalet: there's nothing suggesting he's very good at his job. He's worked with quite a few goalies in the short time he's worked either in the AHL or in the NHL. None have improved, many have lapsed. He might be pretty good, he might be pretty bad, I don't know. But I really can't believe he's too good to replace with the track record that he has. It's not an original opinion, but you asked so there it is...
I think this is abundantly fair, but I wanted to point out that while Sigalet was in the AHL Joni Ortio actually improved a great deal and at one time looked like he could be a great late-round steal. Again, who can say how much Sigalet had to do with his success and then his failure to make the jump to the NHL, but he does count as at least one goalie who improved a lot under Sigalet's tutelage.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Textcritic For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2017, 11:28 AM   #71
sempuki
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
.
People don't create these ridiculous and arbitrary standards to measure what is is "acceptable" criticism

It's a fan forum. Go work for a hockey organization if you want to be surrounded by professional opinions.
And I find your absurd persecution complex unpleasant and disturbing. You're pretending my personal opinion represents some sort of enforceable board orthodoxy. They're opinions. We both have them.

This is a fan forum. Go to a support group if you want people to agree with everything you say.
sempuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 11:52 AM   #72
MarkGio
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Exp:
Default

Lol. Now anytime were arguing against something, we feel persecuted?

I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of people who aren't pleased with Sigalets results. It's not a complex.
MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:17 PM   #73
Zarley
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Zarley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

The thought that a goalie coach is some type of miracle worker is pretty funny. Same with a powerplay coach. If the players aren't executing, it's on them. The coach is there to keep them focused, provide strategy, and add a level of attention to detail.
Zarley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:30 PM   #74
Erick Estrada
Franchise Player
 
Erick Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarley View Post
The thought that a goalie coach is some type of miracle worker is pretty funny. Same with a powerplay coach. If the players aren't executing, it's on them. The coach is there to keep them focused, provide strategy, and add a level of attention to detail.
There's precedent in all leagues as we always hear in football coaches that are QB whisperers where they coach up even mediocre QB's to be competent or better. Francois Allaire at one time was considered one of those guys. Every goaltender Mitch Korn works with seems to blossom as you have Holtby, Grubauer, Rinne, etc. Has there been a goaltender for the Rangers that has been even mediocre singe Benoit Allaire started working for them in 2004? Seems like Rangers backup goaltenders become pretty desired. It does appear that teams that have consistently good goaltending from starters and backups have a common denominator of a really good goaltending coach.
__________________
RIP Al Davis / 1929 - 2011

Last edited by Erick Estrada; 07-14-2017 at 12:32 PM.
Erick Estrada is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Erick Estrada For This Useful Post:
Old 07-15-2017, 04:11 PM   #75
Vulcan
Franchise Player
 
Vulcan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunshine Coast
Exp:
Default

Maybe the best goalie coach in my mind is Sean Burke. He's presently a pro scout for Montreal and isn't interested in coaching goalies anymore. One thing is Treliving worked with him in Phoenix, so he should know how a good goalie coach does his job.
Anyways Burke would be my first choice for replacing Sigalet as his results just aren't there.
__________________

Vulcan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:40 PM.

Calgary Flames
2016-17




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016