Charlottesville VA - WTF???

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Again...how are you able to quantify this statement?

This is an interesting question. How do you quantify the number of white people that believe white Americans are above minorities and own or are owed a country that caters to them?

I think you can start by trying to understand White Nationalism and its relationship to other movements, like Nazism, Christian Dominionism, anti-government movements, and long standing political interests like the John Birch Society.

White Nationalism focuses on the belief that white people are the superior race and that the United States should be the homeland for this superior race. All others are inferior and any infringement upon on the position of whites as the top of the food chain is considered an infringement on their birthright as the supreme race.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...te-nationalist

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/w...explained.html

White Nationalists cross over into groups like the KKK, neo-Nazis, skinheads, neo-Confederates, and Christian identity groups.

Neo-Nazi groups embrace the teachings of Adolph Hitler and the belief of the superiority of the Aryan race. Much of their hatred is against Jews, but they also hold distain for anyone who is not of pure blood and has a white complexion. Neo-Nazis cross-over into fascist groups and Christian identity groups.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...ology/neo-nazi

There is a long history of support in America for Nazi ideals and the Nazi Party itself.

http://time.com/4703586/nazis-america-race-law/

People don't appreciate that America made a lot of money in supporting the Nazis. IBM made ungodly amounts of money during WWII by providing the Nazis the technology needed to catalogue the spoils of war and those in the concentration camps. There is still plenty of support in many corners of white America for the ideals held by the Nazi Party because it was passed from generation to generation. Famous Nazi sympathizers include Adolph Coors, Henry Ford, Charles Coughlin, Prescott Bush, the grand father of George W. Bush, and Fred Koch the patriarch of Koch family, and one of the founders of the John Birch Society.

Neo-Nazism and support for this ideology intersects with many political and social groups in the United States like the John Birch Society, the alt-right and Christian Nationalist movements.

Understanding these political movements, many of them anti-government, will also shed some light onto the numbers of Americans who ascribe to the doctrine under discussion.

The John Birch Society has long been the extreme right in the American political spectrum, and much of Bircher doctrine is based on racial purity and sustenance of white heritage.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...ing-back-birch

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...r-state-215377

What is most scary about the Birchers is they have great support from families like Koch, Scaife, Bradley, and DeVos. They have money and they have been pouring it into interests that affect public policy and government, entrenching their beliefs into laws that allow for the suppression or oppression of minorities.

Out of the Birchers came anti-government and sovereign citizen movements, like the Tea Party, the III (Three Percenters), the Oathkeepers, Molon Labe, the American Freedom Network, and a ridiculous number of militias across the United States.

https://www.splcenter.org/active-ant...-united-states

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...izens-movement

http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/l...ilitia-groups/

https://www.adl.org/education/resour...litia-movement

The common thread throughout many of these anti-government groups is their Christian identification and more often than not, affiliation with some type of born-again Christian church.

https://www.hsaj.org/articles/166

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...stian-identity

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...2016-analysis/

There is a common core to all of these belief systems, and that is white identity. Trying to figure out the number of people who ascribe to that ideological position could be difficult, if we did not have a dew movements and symbols to rely upon. Identifying a Nazi is pretty simple, because they sport a swastika. Identifying people who ascribe to a white Christian identity should be pretty simple as well, if we just look for the symbols representative of their belief structures. We could look for the III percent symbol, or the ichthys, or the rebel flag. I think those may be too selective or overly inclusive at times (ichthys).

I see a Gadsden Flag and I'm pretty sure that the person behind that symbol is going to be white, love their guns, love their religion, hate immigrants, and have strong negative views against the government and minorities. Not all are going to be this way, but the vast majority of them will be in your face about their beliefs. This isn't as overt as the Nazis, but they still harbor the same beliefs and are sympathetic to similar causes. It is wrong to suggest that all people who are Tea Party supporters are overt racists like those on display in Charlottesville, but they definitely espoused such beliefs as a collective at the height of the movement. So I would say it is safe to suggest that the numbers of people who identify themselves as supporters of this ideology do fall into the number you're looking for?

Using that as a baseline, 17% of Americans identify themselves as strong supporter of the Tea Party ideology, the fringe of the American right. So that is probably a good indicator of numbers in the US. I'm not suggesting that these people that are going to march along side Nazis, but they certainly do sympathize with many of the same principles. Push come to shove, these people not only hold, but also display many racist ideals. That is a pretty strong subset of the 25% who say they strongly support Trump and won't budge.

So I would say it is safe to say that there are indeed tens of millions of people who support the ideology in question.

[jayswin]

Thanks to New Era and Flash Walken. I tried to articulate my thoughts in responses to transplant and others who questioned my suggestion that there's tens of millions of Americans who believe whites deserve more and are owed their country, that and couldn't do it properly.

You guys summed it up better than I ever could have.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by ernie

Yep. Clearly not a violent leftist mob either...videos show cars being let through without an issue. No violence in that mob until the alt-right asshat plows into them. And still no violence.

Completely true in this case. The left came out swinging years back and it has only gotten worse. Does not excuse the right, but groups have been mobilizing to meet the violent left.

Both sides have been awful, but it clearly has been the left that has been swinging the most.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Your math skills need some work, .001% of 350million is 350K. That's a lot of people, even 35k is a sizeable movement when you consider where it is mainly geographically concentrated.

It's actually 3,500. I'd be pretty embarrassed if I called someone out for their math skills and then was off by two orders of magnitude on my wrong answer.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

the violent left.

Did someone say Israel, Israel, Israel to summon Nage Waza?*

Please explain. What is the violent left, and where are examples of this violent left? And please save the "anti-fa" bull####. The "anti-fa" are anarchists who maintain no particular ideological position, except to protest whoever is in power.

*Beetlejuice reference

[CliffFletcher]

I'd suggest a useful metric for racism - the notion that some races are superior others, or that racial distinction must be maintained - is attitudes towards miscegenation. Here's some recent data:



Unsurprisingly, Republicans are more likely to disapprove of interracial marriage, with 12% of Republicans disapproving while 6% of Democrats disapprove. Perhaps more surprising is that twice as may blacks polled (19%) vs whites (9%) say more people of different races marrying each other is generally a bad thing for society, and that more women than men (12% vs 7%) say it's a bad thing.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by New Era

Did someone say Israel, Israel, Israel to summon Nage Waza?*

Please explain. What is the violent left, and where are examples of this violent left? And please save the "anti-fa" bull####. The "anti-fa" are anarchists who maintain no particular ideological position, except to protest whoever is in power.

*Beetlejuice reference

Congratulations on debasing yourself to his level. Kudos on the invitation to ruin this thread. What an absolutely #### post.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'm sure that Benedict Arnold guy was a splendid chap deserving of praise and honor too. A traitor is a traitor regardless and that should not be honored. Robert E. Lee was a magnificent general and strategist who did an amazing job doing what he did. What he fought for was entirely contemptible and deserving of scorn. It is just the same thing with Rommel in German during WWII. He too was awesome at what he did, but whom he did it for made it and thereby him an abomination, regardless of any other criteria can be used to describe him as a man.

A man can be brilliant, but if what his brilliance is being used for is contemptible, then it negates the brilliance of the man. Brilliance should only be lauded if it brings forth positive developments for people and society as a whole. Not in the attempt to further the abomination that was slavery.

Those that support the statue, and those that support what the statue represents deserve scorn and rebuking from modern society. Not, oh you have a difference of opinion, so I should respect our differences because I don't want to sound rude. This slow tolerance is how this plague gets a foothold and slow acceptance from a wider portion of the populace as a whole and how things devolve into a nastier situation.

So you're in favour of getting rid of all trace of Robert E Lee? Do you support the renaming of Washington and Lee University, the bulldozing of the ancestral Lee house you can visit at the Arlington cemetery? Where are you going to stop?

Also I really don't see how you can apply your logic of applying the morality of the times to Lee and not to the founding fathers, they all had the power to stamp out the civil war before it could fester, they wrote the phrase " all men are created equal " and did basically nothing to apply that to all men.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Why can't everyone just ignore these ninnys? I would guess the anti protesters gave them exactly what they wanted.

There is a threshold of depravity of ideas that compels a response.

Nazis, KKK, ISIS - I think these ideas are so repugnant that normal citizens have to speak out and be vocal in their opposition.

It is entirely acceptable to be intolerant of intolerance.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

So you're in favour of getting rid of all trace of Robert E Lee? Do you support the renaming of Washington and Lee University, the bulldozing of the ancestral Lee house you can visit at the Arlington cemetery? Where are you going to stop?

Also I really don't see how you can apply your logic of applying the morality of the times to Lee and not to the founding fathers, they all had the power to stamp out the civil war before it could fester, they wrote the phrase " all men are created equal " and did basically nothing to apply that to all men.

Why don't we ask Robert E Lee what he thinks about commemorations of the confederate ideals following the civil war....

Lexington, VA., August 5, 1869.

Dear Sir--Absence from Lexington has prevented my receiving until to-day your letter of the 26th ult., inclosing an invitation from the Gettysburg Battle-field Memorial Association, to attend a meeting of the officers engaged in that battle at Gettysburg, for the purpose of marking upon the ground by enduring memorials of granite the positions and movements of the armies on the field. My engagements will not permit me to be present. I believe if there, I could not add anything material to the information existing on the subject. I think it wiser, moreover, not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.

Very respectfully,
Your obedient servant,
R. E. Lee.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Congratulations on debasing yourself to his level. Kudos on the invitation to ruin this thread. What an absolutely #### post.

Debasing myself? Asking him what he meant with this rhetoric? Asking what is the violent left is debasing oneself?



You know Flash, the best way to counter ignorance is through exposure. You may not believe in that, but you are more likely to have people shift their beliefs if you let them come to conclusions on their own, and the best way to do that is to allow them to explain their thought processes and find the errors in their own logic. Yes, there are going to be plenty who won't learn, but there are plenty that will. I believe in making the effort.

Now if you want to see an absolute #### post, look at this one.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why don't we ask Robert E Lee what he thinks about commemorations of the confederate ideals following the civil war....

Someone who said something so wise should be held up as a shining example for future generations to follow. Now, if they could only erect a monument to honor such an individual.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why don't we ask Robert E Lee what he thinks about commemorations of the confederate ideals following the civil war....

I would completely agree with that statement. When that controversy started about the confederate flag being flown on the SC state legislature I was shocked it would still be flown. Romanticizing the old confederacy should be faux pas but does that apply to a person?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I would completely agree with that statement. When that controversy started about the confederate flag being flown on the SC state legislature I was shocked it would still be flown. Romanticizing the old confederacy should be faux pas but does that apply to a person?

I'm a big fan of what they did in Budapest.

Lug all that old bull#### out of the city, put it all in one area, wall it up and let people pay to go see it if they want to.

[Senator Clay Davis]

We all could use a laugh, so let's laugh. From the DailyStormer....

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I am pretty far right on the CP political spectrum. I am ok with people calling me names regarding my views on illegal immigration and needless government spending, but there is no way I want to be associated with David ####ing Duke and the KKK.

There is a difference between being a right leaving person and the #### that is happening south of the mason dixie line.

And that is exactly what conservatives in this country have to realize. The rally was called "Unite the Right"! So, Americans who align with your political views have to find a way to separate themselves from these people. The political rhetoric in this country has been pushing people to polar opposite positions for years. The vocal minorities on both side have been screaming and those viewpoints are what people see as all encompassing for conservatives or liberals, whichever the case may be. That HAS to change. I have little hope it will.

[Flash Walken]

Many sides.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why don't we ask Robert E Lee what he thinks about commemorations of the confederate ideals following the civil war....

He probably said this because he thought no one in their right mind would celebrate the traitorous losers.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I still can't believe racism is still an extreme problem. How in the hell have we not evolved past that crap?

My theory is that we, as a collective, are not very intelligent.

[Mister Yamoto]

So what is this about for the ..........I'll just call them the KKK?

I really don't think it's about a confederate statue. It's about starting a fight, getting all over the fake news, getting millions of do gooders all mad on facebook and above all else murdering someone. So for the KKK, big win.

I get it. Emotions go wild. But the anti -protest was a huge fail. There has to be a better way. How about just give them their statue? It's not about the statue anyways.