Brian Mulroney has Passed Away

[Sr. Mints]

Originally Posted by fotze2

My ma would buy those costco packs of them, wait until they were stale and hard and eat them. They were only good when there was nothing else better.

My dad would kinda do the same, only he'd freeze the Costco box. Break a piece of Eat-More off, and suck on it.

I just realized Costco doesn't sell that stuff anymore. Where do people get tubs of sour soothers now?! (also better stale)

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by timun

When Mulroney announced he would resign, he said

"Whether you agree with our solutions or not, none will accuse us, I think, of having chosen to evade our responsibilities by sidestepping the most controversial issues of our time."

30+ years later and I don't think there's any room to deny that. His government saw a lot of problems, a lot of which they thought (probably quite rightly, in retrospect) were inherited P.E. Trudeau mistakes, and they decided to face them head-on. Even if the end result didn't bear the fruit it was supposed to, what they tried to do was at least justifiable and seemingly in a genuine attempt to fix the issues of the day.

They desperately had to do something about the budget deficits that Trudeau's government incurred through the early '80s; in retrospect I think it can be argued they were on the right track, but didn't go far enough to get the results required. (Whereas the Chrétien/Martin Liberals basically did exactly what the Mulroney PCs said they'd do, and got a lot of credit for it.)

A lot people hated NAFTA then, and still hate it now, and the detractors were mostly correct about how it would slowly destroy the country's manufacturing base and move it to cheaper Mexican and fervently anti-union jurisdictions in the American South. However, I think in retrospect it would have happened with or without the deal. At least with the deal in place it happened in a somewhat slower and more predictable way. The destruction of the consumer goods manufacturing base would have happened anyway; every first-world country has the same problem. We collectively all off-shored our production of consumer goods to China; NAFTA neither caused that nor stemmed the flow.

The fire they ultimately never should have played with was re-opening Trudeau's constitutional debates in an attempt to iron out the mistakes and omissions with the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accords. In the end it felt like a bunch of effete politicians were asserting to the rest of us what Canada is and should be. That Quebeckers and Western Canadians alike were the most ardent opponents in the Charlottetown Accord referenda was probably a more effective expression of national unity than the accord itself, haha.

That said, the fact that Mulroney's time in government ultimately ended up with the creation of the Reform Party and Bloc, and the PCs being decimated, is precisely why no PM we've had since has gone anywhere near those issues. Harper cut the GST, which in retrospect I think we'll find to have been shortsighted and merely an easy 'score' of political points, and tabled (and passed) the toothless "Québécois nation" motion in 2006, but no one has otherwise gone anywhere near the constitutional issues that Meech Lake/Charlottetown were meant to address. I doubt they ever will, in my lifetime.

It is amazing to go back and revisit the televised debates between Mulroney and John Turner, and see how far our political discourse has fallen in 40 years. I don't know if Mulroney was as "gentlemanly" as some people say—I've read several anecdotes from his political allies who said he was among the slipperiest, most adept liars they'd ever known—but at least on the surface they could have reasonable discussions about issues. Nowadays is more akin to a bunch of gibbons hooting and hurling excrement at each other...

Agree on Charlottetown but disagree on Meech, he was boldly trying to tidy the mess left behind by PET on the repatriation and almost had it with Meech. I think it would’ve been a good outcome for the nation. Charlottetown was a waste of time once Meech failed and he expended too much trying to get it.

[GirlySports]

In the short term didn't free trade kill many Canadian companies. I remember Mother's pizza, Consumers, Robin's Donuts, Beaver Lumber.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

In the short term didn't free trade kill many Canadian companies. I remember Mother's pizza, Consumers, Robin's Donuts, Beaver Lumber.

I don't know if it killed those businesses specifically, but it pretty much ensured that Canada would stay a country that mainly exists to supply natural resources and energy to the U.S. so they can make products and sell them back to Canadians at a premium. It didn't provide the free labour movement that you see in EU either.

[timun]

I've never even heard of Mother's Pizza and Robin's Donuts, but by "Consumers" I presume you mean Consumers Distributing. They went out of business because their supply chain was crap, and whenever I tried to buy anything they just never had it in stock. Ever.

Beaver Lumber was owned by Molson. They divested that non-core business and sold to Home Hardware.

We were never going to become a manufacturing powerhouse: we're too sparsely populated. And most manufacturing went to Asia anyway, NAFTA be damned.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't know if it killed those businesses specifically, but it pretty much ensured that Canada would stay a country that mainly exists to supply natural resources and energy to the U.S. so they can make products and sell them back to Canadians at a premium. It didn't provide the free labour movement that you see in EU either.

It is really a shame we didn't get the free labour movement, but of course the U.S. would never allow it. It's such a unique and cool thing about Europe.

It's also hilarious that they've never updated the list of NAFTA jobs. You'd think in 30 years that might be able to use a tweak or two.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Whynotnow

Agree on Charlottetown but disagree on Meech, he was boldly trying to tidy the mess left behind by PET on the repatriation and almost had it with Meech. I think it would’ve been a good outcome for the nation. Charlottetown was a waste of time once Meech failed and he expended too much trying to get it.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I see a very clear line from the failure of Meech Lake to the failure of Charlottetown to the destruction of progressive conservatism as a whole in this country. It led to the resurgence of Quebec nationalism—which admittedly has simmered since the '90s—and rise of the social-conservative-populism-nigh-fascism we have today from the CPC.

I commend the effort to take the problems of the patriation of the constitution head-on, but the failure to fix anything arguably made it worse than if it had never been tried at all.

[Locke]

Candy-bar Politics is tearing us apart!!

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by timun

Agree to disagree, I guess. I see a very clear line from the failure of Meech Lake to the failure of Charlottetown to the destruction of progressive conservatism as a whole in this country. It led to the resurgence of Quebec nationalism—which admittedly has simmered since the '90s—and rise of the social-conservative-populism-nigh-fascism we have today from the CPC.

I commend the effort to take the problems of the patriation of the constitution head-on, but the failure to fix anything arguably made it worse than if it had never been tried at all.

Totally fair, it’s certainly a valid point. I just felt that the issues Quebec had were going to come to the surface with or without meech but maybe not. As for the failure of progressive conservatism I do lay that at Charlottetown in a big way and the subsequent leader convention where Kim Campbell was selected.

I was a delegate at that convention so remember that leadership race very well. She was almost anointed at the start of the race, Clarke tried to be queen maker there. Even with a huge lead she still almost lost to Charest who was a vastly better candidate and is who I backed after Jim Edward’s bowed out. Jim was never going to win, but was a good western guy and so I parked there until he dropped out. He went to Campbell and there was lots of pressure on us to line up behind Campbell. Only about half of Edward’s delegates followed him to Campbell. The thinking was charest was too much like Mulroney, and we needed someone different. Unfortunately she was terrible, had no business being there. Could a better candidate have saved the party? I think about that a lot, I think the party could’ve avoided being decimated but the Reform momentum may have just been too strong by that point in time.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Ugh... Robin's Donuts still exists.

They seem to have carved out a niche of going where it's too expensive to open a Tim Hortons and/or are right next to a Timmies to get the "I'm not waiting 30 minutes jn the drive thru" when the line is too long crowd.

You want coffee in Inverness? Robin's.

Drive thru is line up to the street at Tim's? Robin's.

Getting gas and don't want to make a second stop for coffee? Robin's.

Plus you get the old men going on about how it's better than Tim Hortons anyway.

[Fuzz]

It doesn't take much to be better than Tims, but it takes effort to be worse.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Whynotnow

Totally fair, it’s certainly a valid point. I just felt that the issues Quebec had were going to come to the surface with or without meech but maybe not.

You may be right. Meech Lake still accelerated it, I think. Same with the Reform movement.

Like I said, I still commend the effort. I think Charlottetown was the last great effort to reconcile and modernize indigenous rights too, and was commendable.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Ugh... Robin's Donuts still exists.

They seem to have carved out a niche of going where it's too expensive to open a Tim Hortons and/or are right next to a Timmies to get the "I'm not waiting 30 minutes jn the drive thru" when the line is too long crowd.

You want coffee in Inverness? Robin's.

Drive thru is line up to the street at Tim's? Robin's.

Getting gas and don't want to make a second stop for coffee? Robin's.

Plus you get the old men going on about how it's better than Tim Hortons anyway.

the food at Robins is better. Far better

[Snuffleupagus]

I'm sure he was mostly a fine guy but didn't Mulroney kill the fisheries in the Maritimes? I seem to remember something like 80,000 jobs lost to cutting back cod fishing only to see the Americans and Portuguese park 10 miles out and take the fish anyway.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

the food at Robins is better. Far better

let's set the bar a little higher

[timun]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm sure he was mostly a fine guy but didn't Mulroney kill the fisheries in the Maritimes? I seem to remember something like 80,000 jobs lost to cutting back cod fishing only to see the Americans and Portuguese park 10 miles out and take the fish anyway.

Overfishing for decades leading up to the 1990s killed the cod fishery. Foreign vessels were a huge problem prior, but their take of the cod haul decreased rapidly in the '70s after Canada exerted an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) of 200 nm off the coast. Canada's own haul more than doubled from the mid-'70s to mid-'80s, while the haul from foreigners fell by more than half.

We could argue the government should have taken stronger action to prevent foreign vessels from taking cod, but frankly if the DFO didn't put a moratorium on cod fishing the species likely would have gone extinct by the end of the '90s. 30+ years later the population still hasn't recovered.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by timun

Overfishing for decades leading up to the 1990s killed the cod fishery. Foreign vessels were a huge problem prior, but their take of the cod haul decreased rapidly in the '70s after Canada exerted an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) of 200 nm off the coast. Canada's own haul more than doubled from the mid-'70s to mid-'80s, while the haul from foreigners fell by more than half.

We could argue the government should have taken stronger action to prevent foreign vessels from taking cod, but frankly if the DFO didn't put a moratorium on cod fishing the species likely would have gone extinct by the end of the '90s. 30+ years later the population still hasn't recovered.

Like what? Have a couple of Hosers in canoes paddle out there and throw hockey sticks at them?

"Like...hey Bros those are our fish eh??"

[timun]

As much as we joke about our armed forces, they are professionals who do their jobs to the best of the abilities...

The problem with trying to assert sovereignty over the cod fishery was a lot of it happened in international waters, and the problem there is... they're international waters. Not even the US Navy asserts domain over half the Atlantic for its own fishermen. Again, we could argue the government should have done something sooner, but I don't think we can blame the DFO under Mulroney's government for using the most extreme measure available to it to prevent the entire species from dying out in a blink.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by timun

As much as we joke about our armed forces, they are professionals who do their jobs to the best of the abilities...

The problem with trying to assert sovereignty over the cod fishery was a lot of it happened in international waters, and the problem there is... they're international waters. Not even the US Navy asserts domain over half the Atlantic for its own fishermen. Again, we could argue the government should have done something sooner, but I don't think we can blame the DFO under Mulroney's government for using the most extreme measure available to it to prevent the entire species from dying out in a blink.

I have two relatives who have served in the Naval Reserves so I feel I have Carte Blanche to mock them in good faith.

For instance, my Father-in-Law often bragged about how he served to protect Canada during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

"Where were you stationed?"

On a ship 'defending' Vancouver Island.

Yeah. Way to devastate the Soviets and defend North America. From almost literally as far away as possible. There was literally a continent between you and this conflict.

Just because you were on a boat somewhere while it was happening doesnt constitute 'participation.'

Anyways, I digress. just harmless little jokes. I know our Armed Forces do the best they can with the limited support our Government gives them.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by timun

As much as we joke about our armed forces, they are professionals who do their jobs to the best of the abilities...

The problem with trying to assert sovereignty over the cod fishery was a lot of it happened in international waters, and the problem there is... they're international waters. Not even the US Navy asserts domain over half the Atlantic for its own fishermen. Again, we could argue the government should have done something sooner, but I don't think we can blame the DFO under Mulroney's government for using the most extreme measure available to it to prevent the entire species from dying out in a blink.

They could have setup Cod education, where schools were taught to stay within 200nm of Canada for their own protection. Then no fisherman would have to yell into the void "where is your Cod now?!"