High Speed Rail Line to be built in Ontario

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Yet if you look a the route and use Toronto as the destination you have metro populations of the following train stops to draw from.

London - 494,000
Kitchener/Waterloo - 522,000
Guelph - 141,000

Total - 1,157,000

Now if you use Calgary as the destination you have metro populations of the following stops to draw from.

Red Deer - 114,000
Edmonton - 1,321,000

Total - 1,435,000

The draw of Toronto is much greater that that between Calgary and Edmonton.

Also not considered is the loss of gas tax revenue...which would be significant.

Oh and it costs about $12 to drive 90 km's on the 407 toll highway. I'm not sure how you could make a train ticket feasible for commuters. Paying two grand a month and four hours a day for the pleasure of working in Toronto is an intense form of hell.

And also, Toronto seems to be one of the most work from home friendly cities ever. My friends here are constantly encouraged to work from home. It's a very conscious change in working culture here. Keeping that going will help ease the painful commute for free.

And people love cars. My buddy in Toronto just bought a driverless Mercedes. So I could pay two grand a month for train tickets or have a beautiful moving piece of art. Some people see that as a no brainer.

[GaiJin]

Some of my family just got back from Japan. We were looking at the costs of the railpass versus just buying spot tickets, the Shinkansen for spot tickets works out to be about .32 cents CDN/per kilometer. Being that our utilization rate for high speed rail would probably be considerably less than in Japan our fees would have to be higher than that.

[jayswin]

So just to ask the obvious question if business/work needs are the biggest driver of this project. How in the hell does anyone afford to pay what a bullet train would likely cost to go to work everyday?

Are people going to pay literally thousands a month to get to work? I get the saved time, but after a certain price point you'd think most citizens just couldn't budget it. Like what do these generally cost per trip?

[Slava]

^ I always find that aspect kind of crazy as well. Maybe it's something you get used to or something because I read an article a couple years ago about a guy "commuting" from Barcelona to London. He didn't make the trip daily, but every week Monday to Thursday or something like that. I guess that was cheaper than just living in London.

[Amethyst]

When I was in university (in Saskatoon), I had a professor who lived in Calgary. Her husband was a medical doctor here. She flew into Saskatoon every Sunday night or Monday morning, and flew back to Calgary Friday afternoon.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jayswin

So just to ask the obvious question if business/work needs are the biggest driver of this project. How in the hell does anyone afford to pay what a bullet train would likely cost to go to work everyday?

Are people going to pay literally thousands a month to get to work? I get the saved time, but after a certain price point you'd think most citizens just couldn't budget it. Like what do these generally cost per trip?

It ends up being a part of your salary in most cases, your choice of train pass or company car, and generally its tax deductible, by the time you've factored in the savings on housing and savings on the car it ends up being if not a saving then cost neutral for a house twice the size of the hovel you could afford in London.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

When I was in university (in Saskatoon), I had a professor who lived in Calgary. Her husband was a medical doctor here. She flew into Saskatoon every Sunday night or Monday morning, and flew back to Calgary Friday afternoon.

What is the flight time? 1 hour?

2 hours on a train twice a day is crazy.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Azure

What is the flight time? 1 hour?

2 hours on a train twice a day is crazy.

Oh, I agree. I just meant it as an example of the strange commutes some people have. I couldn't imagine doing 2 hours each way every day, but it seems like it's not that unusual for people in large cities. Maybe if you can do some of your work on the train, so you spend fewer hours at the office?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by jayswin

So just to ask the obvious question if business/work needs are the biggest driver of this project. How in the hell does anyone afford to pay what a bullet train would likely cost to go to work everyday?

Are people going to pay literally thousands a month to get to work? I get the saved time, but after a certain price point you'd think most citizens just couldn't budget it. Like what do these generally cost per trip?

Google has a Greyhound bus that transports its people from Toronto daily to and from KW. They pay for that service with wifi so that their employees work both ways. That service takes 2 hours each way in rush hour...4 hours+/day. Drop that to 45 minutes each way, 90 minutes/day and all of a sudden you have a happier workforce. Google pays for that service as do many other companies in either direction. Its almost a work in Calgary live in Edmonton scenario. If that trip takes 45 minutes to an hour youd see a lot of people making that trip in Alberta.

[FlamesAddiction]

Keep in mind, this isn't just for daily commuters. Tourists will use it. People looking for jobs to get out of the GTA will use it. People who work in other cities, but have meetings at other branch offices or with clients around Ontario will use it. Shoppers and consumers will use it.

The economy pretty much demands that both labour and consumers have mobility, but the population density and infrastructure demands in Ontario have crippled this ability.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It ends up being a part of your salary in most cases, your choice of train pass or company car, and generally its tax deductible, by the time you've factored in the savings on housing and savings on the car it ends up being if not a saving then cost neutral for a house twice the size of the hovel you could afford in London.

I don't think Canadians get a public transit tax credit any more. You know, just another loop hole for rich people.

[Mr.Coffee]

I think something that needs to be asked that hasn't yet is why the hell are these trains so expensive?

$30MM for 1km of track?!? How? Why? Is it just land leasing?

Seems insanely expensive to me.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I think something that needs to be asked that hasn't yet is why the hell are these trains so expensive?

$30MM for 1km of track?!? How? Why? Is it just land leasing?

Seems insanely expensive to me.

The track for a high speed train is essentially a fully concrete, well bridge,that sits on the ground, regular trains can get by with an old fashioned sleeper on hardcore but high speed requires a massivly stable track, the whole track is effectively built into a concrete box

[fundmark19]

Isn't this the whole point of the hyperloop to drop the costs of these high speed trains? With Waterloo being one of the finalists in the design contest and Canada trying to attract more and more tech wouldn't this be a good time to announce a hyperloop project instead?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Also, with the very real possibility of autonomous vehicles becoming mainstream over the next couple of decades, this looks like a huge boondoggle. People might be able to get to work much easier with an autonomous transportation system.

It reminds me of the high speed ferry in BC, it was touted as a major time saver, until they started using it and realized that they could only get the speed up in small portions of the trip...ooops.

Also, there must be MUCH more profitable and productive uses of public funds than this train...

[KTrain]

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

Oh, I agree. I just meant it as an example of the strange commutes some people have. I couldn't imagine doing 2 hours each way every day, but it seems like it's not that unusual for people in large cities. Maybe if you can do some of your work on the train, so you spend fewer hours at the office?

That is a good point. If the train gave commuters the ability to get a couple hours work done it might be a big bonus for the employer of that person.

I think the bigger problem is whatever they expect the budget to be, it will probably be 40% higher.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Azure

That is a good point. If the train gave commuters the ability to get a couple hours work done it might be a big bonus for the employer of that person.

I think the bigger problem is whatever they expect the budget to be, it will probably be 40% higher.

Why? You're supposed to deficit spend on infrastructure during recessions because labour and material will be cheaper! Everyone knows that!!

What do you mean it isnt 1931 anymore....

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by KTrain

What does Monahan have to do with this?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

10 million people annually at $10 per trip is $100 million per year.

That is just a guess at what a ticket price could be.

20-30 year payback? What about cost overruns? Similar rail projects across North America have always cost more than figured, and considering we'd have to use Bombardier and they can't do anything right I'm a bit skeptical of anything the Ontario government says.

Theoretically infrastructure should increase overall economic productivity, which will in turn increase tax revenue.

Also, theoretically, the vast majority of the money the government is spending is going to Canadians, which results in a lot of the "expenses" being recouped in taxes immediately. For example, the construction worker earns $100k. 30% of that is taxed. Then the worker buys a truck. The truck is taxed. So is the income of the truck salesman.

So if the rail system is truly needed, then it should go ahead, and you can't just look at a simple cost/benefit analysis using ticket revenue.