Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The Rabin-Peres plan included the construction of an elevated freeway across the Negev Desert connecting Gaza and the West Bank, which included utility lines. They also proposed free trade between Israel and the future Palestinian state.

None of the proposed agreements from Israel included permanent Israeli settlement Gaza.

Even the absurd Trump plan showed Israel giving more land to the Gazans.

The idea that officially Israeli policy has now turned a complete about face and they are planning to put Israelis back into Gaza is absurd. Particularly given the atmosphere in Gaza.

[ResAlien]

You mean the atmosphere in Gaza being that it’s inhospitable to human life what with the bombs and the gunfire and the starvation and the destruction of critical infrastructure?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

Is anyone denying that Itamar Ben Gvir has extremist views? His party is one of a dozen parties with seats in the Knesset.

Does this work both ways? Do we ascribe extremist views to all Palestinians, or is that still collective punishment?

In general you would hold the government accountable but not the civilians accountable. When a minister of national security says or does something it’s reasonable to hold that the government holds those views.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

You mean the atmosphere in Gaza being that it’s inhospitable to human life what with the bombs and the gunfire and the starvation and the destruction of critical infrastructure?

And it's run by a terrorist organization that seeks to rape and murder Israelis.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

In general you would hold the government accountable but not the civilians accountable. When a minister of national security says or does something it’s reasonable to hold that the government holds those views.

No it's actually not. In a democracy many parties (and party members), with varying views, combine to form a government. You're stating that all governments across the world should be held to the views of their most extreme members?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

No it's actually not. In a democracy many parties (and party members), with varying views, combine to form a government. You're stating that all governments across the world should be held to the views of their most extreme members?

Sorry I should have been more specific. When that individual becomes part of the executive branch yes we should consider them to represent and speak for the executive branch of government.

Edit: I should add I would only hold the actions and statements while in his role as government against the government itself. The actions prior to the role should be ascribed to himself.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sorry I should have been more specific. When that individual becomes part of the executive branch yes we should consider them to represent and speak for the executive branch of government.

No. Not the way it works either. Many governments form coalitions with minority parties.

There are 37 appointed ministers in the Israeli government, of 120 total Knesset members. The current governing coalition is made up of over a dozen parties, and hold 64 of the 120 seats. Without offering a cabinet position to the parties in this coalition, the coalition would not exist.

Current polls indicate that the current government is unlikely to get reelected.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

And it's run by a terrorist organization that seeks to rape and murder Israelis.

And there you go.

You dismiss the extremists in the Israeli cabinet but you presume Hamas speaks for everyone in Gaza.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by blankall

Is anyone denying that Itamar Ben Gvir has extremist views? His party is one of a dozen parties with seats in the Knesset

He's Minister of National Security. It's not like he's some back-bencher.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

And there you go.

You dismiss the extremists in the Israeli cabinet but you presume Hamas speaks for everyone in Gaza.

Not the same at all. If the Israelis had voted an extremist party as the number one party, I would agree.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

No. Not the way it works either. Many governments form coalitions with minority parties.

There are 37 appointed ministers in the Israeli government, of 120 total Knesset members. The current governing coalition is made up of over a dozen parties, and hold 64 of the 120 seats. Without offering a cabinet position to the parties in this coalition, the coalition would not exist.

Current polls indicate that the current government is unlikely to get reelected.

I am aware of how a minority government works.

But you are telling me we shouldn’t listen to the minister of defense on issues of national defense. That’s absurd

You also would have me believe that giving cabinet positions does not affect the policies of the government and that the people in cabinet do not represent the aims of the government.

Who in the current cabinet represent the Israeli government?

[Manhattanboy]

Ya that's the problem with PR systems - fringe parties wind up holding the balance of power, resulting in far too much influence in Cabinet, non-confidence votes and way too many elections. Years ago Israel had a chance to change their system to a riding-first-past-the-post system when Labor and Likud had formed a national unity government.

Obviously our system is far from perfect given that the NDP has way too much power in Parliament relative to the number of seats they hold.

At least Israelis have a say, including their 20% Arab population, which has representation in the Knesset. When were the last elections in Gaza again? Did opposition parties even participate?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

I am aware of how a minority government works.

But you are telling me we shouldn’t listen to the minister of defense on issues of national defense. That’s absurd

You also would have me believe that giving cabinet positions does not affect the policies of the government and that the people in cabinet do not represent the aims of the government.

Who in the current cabinet represent the Israeli government?

Firstly he's the Minister of National security.

That minister is in charge of the internal police and prison systems. Literally no say in external affairs and settlements. It's a far less influential position than the Minister of defence.

His true power lies in the ability to collapse the government. Hence why Israel has had 5 elections since 2019, and is likely having another as soon the state of emergency is over.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not the same at all. If the Israelis had voted an extremist party as the number one party, I would agree.

lol

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Is anyone denying that Itamar Ben Gvir has extremist views? His party is one of a dozen parties with seats in the Knesset.

Does this work both ways? Do we ascribe extremist views to all Palestinians, or is that still collective punishment?

Do you even know what you’re arguing at this point?

You’re the one who said Gvir was an extremist originally and nobody denied that, so who do you think is arguing he isn’t or arguing that someone thinks he isn’t?

You’re the one who generalized Israelis and all anyone else did was point out that those views couldn’t be ascribed to all Israelis, with evidence from actual Israelis including those in government so… does what work both ways? Why are you suddenly so eager to ascribe extremist views to all Palestinians when you were the only one ascribing views to all Israelis?

I mean, I know why, and it’s ugly, but why don’t you just come out and say it?

You’re very clearly happy to share positive generalizations about Israelis and, should someone provided counter evidence, dismiss them entirely and hungrily bring up extremist Palestinians raping and murdering people.

EDIT:

Trying to work this out in my head

“Israelis don’t want this!”
“Well, some obviously do, including some in government.”
“I didn’t mean all of them! Why are you saying all of them? Should I just say bad things about all Palestinians??”
“No, man, I said some do, including some in government.”
“Yeah, but those are extremists! I guess I should just say bad things about ALL Palestinians, huh??? You’re making me do it!”

This whole “ughhh you’re forcing me to say terrible things about all Palestinians!” is some weirdo creepy racist thing, I guess. The layer of “I’ll ascribe the views of Hamas to Palestinians who weren’t even born when they were elected but please be aware that the Israeli government minister who was elected two years ago cannot possibly be representative of any Israelis due to the nature of modern democracy” on top of it is literally insane. What a loon.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Firstly he's the Minister of National security.

That minister is in charge of the internal police and prison systems. Literally no say in external affairs and settlements. It's a far less influential position than the Minister of defence.

His true power lies in the ability to collapse the government. Hence why Israel has had 5 elections since 2019, and is likely having another as soon the state of emergency is over.

What about this dude?

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday.

Seems he has the ability to take extremist actions in the name of Israel, and is far right. So ya, what is it you arguing here?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What about this dude?



Seems he has the ability to take extremist actions in the name of Israel, and is far right. So ya, what is it you arguing here?

He does not make those decisions. That is not in Gaza.

And despite the argument, that several posters in here have taken, that terrorism is the only thing Israel understands, post Oct 7, the desire of the Israeli public for a two state solution is at an all time low. More people living in Israel will see the settlements as a necessary buffer to militant activity.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not the same at all. If the Israelis had voted an extremist party as the number one party, I would agree.

Um Netanyahu is in power. Is there someone actually more extreme than Genocidal Bibi?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by blankall

He does not make those decisions. That is not in Gaza.

Does that make it better? That the new land they're stealing isn't in Gaza...yet?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Azure

So keep spinning.

There is a reason Egypt not only has a wall, but is fortifying it each year. Once you figure out why, you'll understand the situation a little better.

The latest ICJ defence from Azure.

Egypt has a big wall therefore that justifies the slaughter and starvation of a population.