Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by nik-

Good news. I wonder how he feels ... same flight the day later goes down? Lottery ticket, he needs to buy one.

I'm guessing he's sleeping since he didn't answer his phone messages. His sister said she couldn't get a hold of him either, but that's more because he's probably gone to bed.

I guess he'll find out in a few hours.

I was able to confirm he took the KLM yesterday.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Captain.

If NATO citizens are killed here does NATO go in and attack the rebels ? Does it count as an attack against a NATO member ?

I'm not the Captain, but 0% chance they will attack based on this.

[vegasbound]

Have the Dutch released a statement yet?

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Translation

I will translate:
"We just shot down An-26 (note:ukrainian transport plane used by military) near the city of Torez, the debris is lying somewhere close to the coal-mine "Progress. "
We have warned before not to fly in "our sky."
And here is the video confirmation.
The plane fell behind a spoil tip, the residential sector is not caught. Civilians are not injured.

Edit:

P.S. This screen is from a known social page where Strelkov boasts of his "achievments" in a war agianst Ukrainian army.

This if from an hour ago.

Mistaken identity ?

Glad these clowns are outing themselves already.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Captain.

If NATO citizens are killed here does NATO go in and attack the rebels ? Does it count as an attack against a NATO member ?

No. Strongly worded letter to follow.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Captain.

If NATO citizens are killed here does NATO go in and attack the rebels ? Does it count as an attack against a NATO member ?

That's up to NATO interpretation. It was a Malaysian airliner, Malaysia is not part of NATO.

Nor is the Ukraine even though it has applied in the past. Realistically unless the threat to other NATO countries is realized, NATO I don't think has any legal obligation to intervene, and it could be dangerous with the Russian Bear so interested in that country.

NATO can state that there were citizens of NATO member states on the plane and use that for justification, however and not to sound cold, on the balance scale there would be a lot of deaths attributed to a very small initial casualty list.

If NATO is going to do anything its because they feel that it is their international duty and probably only on the invite of the UN.

But of course anything like that has to pass by the security council and that won't happen.

NATO will probably up the rhetoric, stack their forces and not be able to do anything.

But that's just my interpretation.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Unbelievable.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Translation

I will translate:
"We just shot down An-26 (note:ukrainian transport plane used by military) near the city of Torez, the debris is lying somewhere close to the coal-mine "Progress. "
We have warned before not to fly in "our sky."
And here is the video confirmation.
The plane fell behind a spoil tip, the residential sector is not caught. Civilians are not injured.

Edit:

P.S. This screen is from a known social page where Strelkov boasts of his "achievments" in a war agianst Ukrainian army.

This if from an hour ago.

Mistaken identity ?

The People's Republic of Donetsk, a break-away separatist Ukrainian group, allegedly shot down an AN-26 Military aircraft a couple of days ago.

This is something different.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Mr. Warmonger weighs in.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said there would be "hell to pay" if Russia or Russian separatists were involved in the disappearance of a Malaysian airplane over eastern Ukraine.

McCain said the incident had the markings of someone mistaking the Malaysian airline with a Ukrainian military plane.

"It has the earmarks of a tragic mistake made by someone who had the capability to shoot down an aircraft," he said. "And we know at least from the last few couple of weeks that could be Russian or separatist Russian capability. If that is true, this is really, really something that commands our attention to bring this kind of thing to a halt."

If Russia or Russian separatists were involved in the incident, McCain said, "I think there is going to be hell to pay and should be."

Still, McCain said people should not yet leap to conclusions, predicting that answers would come in the next few hours.

"To leap to conclusions could be very embarrassing and really inappropriate until we have more information," McCain said on MSNBC. "But there have been, as you mentioned, previous instances of shoot down of Ukrainian aircraft."

"It has the earmarks — and I'm not concluding — but it has the earmarks of a mistaken identification of a aircraft that they may have believed was Ukrainian,” he said. "If that is true, this is a horrible — if it is true — it is a horrible tragedy."

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/21...#ixzz37kNE7rVu

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The People's Republic of Donetsk, a break-away separatist Ukrainian group, allegedly shot down an AN-26 Military aircraft a couple of days ago.

This is something different.

Look at the time stamp, it's the same incident.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No matter what happens it traces back to the Russians, they manufacture the various missiles and the vehicles themselves. I know that the Chinese manufacture their own version and the Iranians have a knockoff as well.

What's difficult to prove is were the missiles and vehicles sold or "loaned" to the separatists or stolen from the Ukraine military or from a Russian warehouse.

Right now the conspiracy theorist in me is probably thinking that Russia is going to manufacture a stolen weapons report from some Western Russian arms warehouse and some poor gomer in their military is going to be charged with corruption.

Don't rule out the possibility that it was neither the Russians nor the rebels but rather the Ukrainian military who might have accidentally shot down the airliner. It's way too early to assign blame until we have more facts.

[J79]

Originally Posted by vegasbound

Have the Dutch released a statement yet?

Not yet.
Prime minister Rutte made a short statement that he is on his way to The Hague and will make a formel statement later. (expected within 90 minutes)

EDIT:

Prime minister Mark Rutte:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2...er_MH17__.html

,,Ik ben diep geschokt door de dramatische berichten over het neerstorten van vlucht MH17 van Malaysian Airlines van Amsterdam naar Kuala Lumpur boven Oekraïens grondgebied.
Nog heel veel is onduidelijk over de toedracht, de omstandigheden en de inzittenden.
Ik heb zojuist gesproken met de Oekraïense President.
Ben nu onderweg terug naar Nederland om vanuit Den Haag de situatie verder te volgen en te handelen.
Onze gedachten gaan nu uit naar de inzittenden, hun familie en vrienden."`

-------------

Google Translate:

'I am deeply shocked by the tragic news about the crash of flight MH17 from Malaysian Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over Ukrainian territory.
Still very much is unclear about the facts, circumstances and the occupants.
I just talked with the Ukrainian president.
I'm on my way back to the Netherlands to The Hague to monitor the situation and continue to act.
Our thoughts are now looking forward to the passengers, their families and friends. "

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The People's Republic of Donetsk, a break-away separatist Ukrainian group, allegedly shot down an AN-26 Military aircraft a couple of days ago.

This is something different.

The video cap on the right is from the wreckage today. That's also today's date on the posting.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by nik-

The video cap on the right is from the wreckage today. That's also today's date on the posting.

Downed An-26 in the Luhansk region
July 14 militia proclaimed the People's Republic of Lugansk (LC) also knocked Ukrainian An-26 Air Force . As the press service of the LC said that five crew members of the downed plane captured (this on board were eight people). Speaker power operation while Vladislav Seleznev said that prisoners were "two members of the crew."

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017

Sorry, I think I got the militia groups names mixed up and the date, but the fact remains - on July 14, an AN-26 aircraft was downed.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Downed An-26 in the Luhansk region
July 14 militia proclaimed the People's Republic of Lugansk (LC) also knocked Ukrainian An-26 Air Force . As the press service of the LC said that five crew members of the downed plane captured (this on board were eight people). Speaker power operation while Vladislav Seleznev said that prisoners were "two members of the crew."

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017

Sorry, I think I got the militia groups names mixed up and the date, but the fact remains - on July 14, an AN-26 aircraft was downed.

ok well that's fine, but if they're saying this is the video footage of the incident, then that is the Malaysian plane.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Translation

I will translate:
"We just shot down An-26 (note:ukrainian transport plane used by military) near the city of Torez, the debris is lying somewhere close to the coal-mine "Progress. "
We have warned before not to fly in "our sky."
And here is the video confirmation.
The plane fell behind a spoil tip, the residential sector is not caught. Civilians are not injured.

Edit:

P.S. This screen is from a known social page where Strelkov boasts of his "achievments" in a war agianst Ukrainian army.

This if from an hour ago.

Mistaken identity ?

I don't buy this at all. an An-26 cub is a turboprop is about a third the size of a 777, and its operating ceiling is significantly lower then the Malaysian flight was rumored to be flying.

The Buk has its own radar, the signature would be significantly different, and on top of that the Buk has a optical backup system that would be able to visually identify the plane even at that height. This backup system is used if the Radar system fails or is jammed. The optical system can be used for both normal and infrared passive tracking of the target.



As well the Malaysian flight's transponder would be squaking civilian flight and that would show up on the radar screen in the Buk.

Either these are the worst operators ever or this guy is lying.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Don't rule out the possibility that it was neither the Russians nor the rebels but rather the Ukrainian military who might have accidentally shot down the airliner. It's way too early to assign blame until we have more facts.

Why would Ukrainians shoot down a plane? The rebels aren't operating any air assets afaik.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Don't rule out the possibility that it was neither the Russians nor the rebels but rather the Ukrainian military who might have accidentally shot down the airliner. It's way too early to assign blame until we have more facts.

I didn't if you look at my earlier posts, I did discuss the possibility since the Ukraine's also use this system.

I just don't see why the Ukraine's would shoot down a civilian airliner and then a well known separatist would take credit thought?

[jschick88]

Heart Breaking.

PzFeed Top News ‏@PzFeed 4s

UKRAINE JET DISASTER: - Malaysian plane shot down -

295 dead -

80 kids -

23 Americans

World's deadliest aviation incident since 9/11.

[Senator Clay Davis]

80 kids? Russia is totally ####ed if this comes back as the rebels. Only North Korea will be on their side.