Jian Ghomeshi no longer with CBC

[Huntingwhale]

Jian has the biggest scumbag lawyer around. Look her up on Wikipedia and see the charges she's gotten dropped from her clients. Wouldn't surprise me if he walks away unscathed from this.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Jian has the biggest scumbag lawyer around. Look her up on Wikipedia and see the charges she's gotten dropped from her clients. Wouldn't surprise me if he walks away unscathed from this.

Why is she a scumbag? Wouldn't you hire her if you were accused of a crime?

Every accused is entitled to a vigorous defence.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

This seems to me to be another in a long line of posts that I see on this topic from you that are very accusatory towards the poster, but don't offer up a ton of thought provoking material or well thought out points. Everything is exaggerated for maximum effect with little to no actual substance.

I'm not gonna tell you to stop though. I just want to see the same zealotry used by you on every topic from now on.

In the Huntington Hills thread, when someone mentions the city going all to hell and someone else responding with a post about declining murder rates over the last 20 years, I want you in there like flies to poop standing on your soapbox telling everyone that murderers are EVERYWHERE!!! and that we are all in super, super danger and that they are blind to the cesspool that is our society.

In a Flames game thread, OMG Backlund missed that pass!!!! Trade him!!! He's a bum!!! Then someone responds that he's quietly having a not bad season and you reply by saying "Yeah but he has missed every pass EVER and he's the reason we lose every game!!!!!!". Actually now that I think about it, that will just ensure that you will have no problem fitting in to the game threads.

Rinse and repeat for every subject.

Speaking of zero substance. What exactly about my post was accusatory? I brought up specific examples of why I thought Cliff was mistaken about his claim that rape isn't boasted about. You know, like how debates are supposed to work. Not surprised to see you still haven't learned that after your prolonged vacation.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Speaking of zero substance. What exactly about my post was accusatory? I brought up specific examples of why I thought Cliff was mistaken about his claim that rape isn't boasted about. You know, like how debates are supposed to work. Not surprised to see you still haven't learned that after your prolonged vacation.

It's the hyperbole. I feel like there's rarely a desire to have a discussion with posters and flesh out some ideas on how we can move towards a more accepting culture. I'd go after your ideas on the subject but I honestly don't know what they are. All I know is that you think everyone else's are wrong.

Frankly I'm disappointed that you immediately had to revert to low blows. I didn't insult you. I didn't name call. I just pointed out that you didn't seem interested in a discussion. Your post sounded to me like you were talking down to the person you quoted without actually providing any interesting or substantial counterpoints.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It's the hyperbole. I feel like there's rarely a desire to have a discussion with posters and flesh out some ideas on how we can move towards a more accepting culture. I'd go after your ideas on the subject but I honestly don't know what they are. All I know is that you think everyone else's are wrong.

Frankly I'm disappointed that you immediately had to revert to low blows. I didn't insult you. I didn't name call. I just pointed out that you didn't seem interested in a discussion. Your post sounded to me like you were talking down to the person you quoted without actually providing any interesting or substantial counterpoints.

I provided three different examples of why I though Cliff was wrong. What exactly was hyperbolic about that? I went back an re-read the post, and I don't see it as particularly abrasive. I'm not going to argue that nature plays no role in the matter, but I do think it's incorrect to assume that culture plays a minor role and there's not much we can do about it. At the very least we can be doing a lot more to support SA survivors by making it culturally unacceptable to silence and shame them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why is she a scumbag? Wouldn't you hire her if you were accused of a crime?

Every accused is entitled to a vigorous defence.

I was going to say this but it sounds better coming from a lawyer.

Every person deserves their day in court and its up to the prosecution to prove their case and their evidence.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Uhhh...really? You've never heard of Roosh V, who has made a living out of just that and advocating for rape to be legalized?

Nope. Are you really suggesting that someone advocating for rape to be legalized has any kind of popular support?

Originally Posted by rubecube

You've never heard dudes bragging about taking drunk girls home? Never seen guys at bars grabbing girls' asses?

I've seen and heard of both things carried out by men and women. I've had my ass grabbed numerous times. Sex and drunkenness is a murky and difficult subject. I will say that my wife and I were both drunk when we first had sex, and that's pretty common among people I know.

Originally Posted by rubecube

I've also seen men and women both deny another person's SA experiences. Hell, look at every time a celebrity or pro athlete is accused. I'm not saying that people should automatically assume the person is guilty, but the fact that the opposite of that happens and we immediately see a bunch of people start calling the accuser a lying, money-grubbing whore tells me that there's still a lot of work to be done,.

What exactly is that work? Just as we will never have a world without rape, we will never have a world without lying about rape. Just as we'll never have a world without lying about theft or murder. Some people are awful. And our courts do not - and cannot - give accusers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to allegations of serious crimes.

I guess I want to know what the conditions are under which Canada will no longer be called a 'rape culture.'

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I think, Rube, that the issue is that this subject is hard enough to talk about as it is without the umbrage that you generally take. It's already really hard to discuss this stuff objectively, because it's inherently a very tense, emotional discussion no matter what.

For me, the point you respond to - that men don't boast about raping girls - strikes me as intuitively right. I've never heard a guy brag about raping a girl, and I certainly don't see it regularly. If I did, I'd expect that to be considered a totally unacceptable thing by basically everyone, and that depending on the circumstances it might result in police involvement. So to respond with "uhhhhh.... really?" - as if that was a totally bewildering statement by Cliff - isn't maybe the best way to deal with it... I mean, "Roosh V" is something that sounds vaguely familiar, but if you hadn't told me who he was I would have had no idea.

[saillias]

@HilaryBeaumont has been tweeting the case live today.

Hilary Beaumont ‏@HilaryBeaumont29m29 minutes ago
Henein: Do you agree that today in court, you didn't say anything about your head being smashed into a window? B/c that didn't happen? Yes.

Hilary Beaumont ‏@HilaryBeaumont30m30 minutes ago
Complainant says she didn't choose her words carefully when speaking to detective.

Hilary Beaumont ‏@HilaryBeaumont29m29 minutes ago
Complainant says her head "was in contact" with the window. "He did not smash my head [into] the window."

Hilary Beaumont ‏@HilaryBeaumont27m27 minutes ago
Henien: It was a figment of your imagination. Complainant: Words were in the wrong order. Didn't realize police report would be "in here."

Well all the pre-trial reports about Ghomeshi's lawyer are holding up. I'm no expert but it looks like she has already torn a hole in the first complainant's testimony.

[troutman]

Rosemary Westwood ‏@rosiewestwood The stats are incredible: only about 0.5 per cent of sex assaults result in court proceedings, only about 0.2 per cent end in convictions

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why is she a scumbag? Wouldn't you hire her if you were accused of a crime?

Every accused is entitled to a vigorous defence.

I just took a look at the list of charges some of her former clients were facing and how she got them off. Including one doctor who committed sexual crimes against minors and simply got his license removed.

I know she's just doing her job, but if she gets Gomeshi's charges dropped, then that sucks for the victims. That's all.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nope. Are you really suggesting that someone advocating for rape to be legalized has any kind of popular support?

If dude and other PUAs are able to make a living off of giving seminars where they basically teach other dudes methods of coercion and manipulation to get women to sleep with them, and their customers know ahead of time that this is Roosh's stance, I'd say it has a level of support that is unacceptable.

I've seen and heard of both things carried out by men and women. I've had my ass grabbed numerous times. Sex and drunkenness is a murky and difficult subject. I will say that my wife and I were both drunk when we first had sex, and that's pretty common among people I know.

I probably shouldn't have specified a gender in that post because who is committing the assault is irrelevant to the point I'm making. And I agree with you regarding sex and drunkeness, but there are absolutely instances where people have used alcohol for predatory means and then bragged about it. The PUA community is notorious for it, but I've also been in enough locker rooms to know it's not exclusive to them.

What exactly is that work? Just as we will never have a world without rape, we will never have a world without lying about rape. Just as we'll never have a world without lying about theft or murder. Some people are awful. And our courts do not - and cannot - give accusers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to allegations of serious crimes.

But we as the public, who have the capacity to provide support for victims, are not our courts and aren't required to choose between compassion for accusers and punishment for the accused. Is it not possible to have compassion, while reserving judgement?

I guess I want to know what the conditions are under which Canada will no longer be called a 'rape culture.'

That's a pretty complex question with a whole bunch of different answers. For me personally, I'd like to see a lot less victim-blaming to start with.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think, Rube, that the issue is that this subject is hard enough to talk about as it is without the umbrage that you generally take. It's already really hard to discuss this stuff objectively, because it's inherently a very tense, emotional discussion no matter what.

For me, the point you respond to - that men don't boast about raping girls - strikes me as intuitively right. I've never heard a guy brag about raping a girl, and I certainly don't see it regularly. If I did, I'd expect that to be considered a totally unacceptable thing by basically everyone, and that depending on the circumstances it might result in police involvement. So to respond with "uhhhhh.... really?" - as if that was a totally bewildering statement by Cliff - isn't maybe the best way to deal with it... I mean, "Roosh V" is something that sounds vaguely familiar, but if you hadn't told me who he was I would have had no idea.

Do people explicitly brag about raping women? I mean some probably do but it's not common, but my point was that people brag about acts that essentially constitute sexual assault because we as a culture are accepting of these acts when they're put in certain terms, and that needs to change.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I just took a look at the list of charges some of her former clients were facing and how she got them off. Including one doctor who committed sexual crimes against minors and simply got his license removed.

I know she's just doing her job, but if she gets Gomeshi's charges dropped, then that sucks for the victims. That's all.

"Got them off"?

The Crown needs to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. She's not getting Gomeshi's charges dropped, he will either be found guilty or not guilty by a judge.

I agree this sucks for the victims, but that's the system.

[rubecube]

Yeah, as much as I thin Ghomeshi is probably scum, he's entitled to his day in court and the best defense he can get.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by troutman

Rosemary Westwood ‏@rosiewestwood The stats are incredible: only about 0.5 per cent of sex assaults result in court proceedings, only about 0.2 per cent end in convictions

After being a lawyer in Alberta for a few years, I'd say the Crown has a success rate of about 15-20% in sexual assault trials.

The majority of the time, it comes down to he said vs she said, with no other physical evidence or witnesses, over a time period that happened a long time ago.

If the accused takes the stand, denies the offence, is a somewhat believable person, he isn't getting convicted. Unless you draw a judge that is super Crown friendly and always convicts.

I've had judges put an accused on a peace bond after finding the accused not guilty, because they believe the complainant, but can't be sure it happened because they weren't there and have no definitive proof.

[corporatejay]

I don't know who "Roosh V" is but when you say coercion and manipulation what does he do? Does he force women to have sex with him? What are PUAs?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I don't know who "Roosh V" is but when you say coercion and manipulation what does he do? Does he force women to have sex with him? What are PUAs?

Pick-up artists. Judging by some of the things he's written and said, I would say the chances are pretty high that he has. Off the top of my head, I know he's admitted to seeking out drunk girls as easy targets. I try to avoid his stuff as much as possible, because he's basically human garbage.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

After being a lawyer in Alberta for a few years, I'd say the Crown has a success rate of about 15-20% in sexual assault trials.

The majority of the time, it comes down to he said vs she said, with no other physical evidence or witnesses, over a time period that happened a long time ago.

If the accused takes the stand, denies the offence, is a somewhat believable person, he isn't getting convicted. Unless you draw a judge that is super Crown friendly and always convicts.

I've had judges put an accused on a peace bond after finding the accused not guilty, because they believe the complainant, but can't be sure it happened because they weren't there and have no definitive proof.

I wonder how that changes for the Ghomeshis and Cosbys when we're dealing with a small army of accusers

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by saillias

I wonder how that changes for the Ghomeshis and Cosbys when we're dealing with a small army of accusers

It depends if the Crown is trying to introduce similar fact evidence, which I don't believe they are.

Essentially, if you're looking for a judge to say "he's accused of doing this to this woman in similar fashion to these other accusations". He won't. He can't. He can only consider each accusation on its individual merits.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nope. Are you really suggesting that someone advocating for rape to be legalized has any kind of popular support?

In the case of Roosh V, and to the detriment of society itself, yes. In fact, a small band of his followers are planning a "meeting" in Calgary for this Saturday.