Woman demand apology from Porter Airlines.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Posting this again because I've yet to see anyone address this point:

If White Power Bill doesn't want to sit next to (or even speak directly to) a black person, what should the appropriate response of the airline be?

a) Tell WPB to either sit down in his assigned seat or get off the plane
b) Ask the black person to move so WPB's racist beliefs can be accommodated
c) Other (please specify)

Is it appropriate for employees of the airline to ask other passengers to make accommodations for WPB's racism? Would the black passenger be justified in complaining about the airline's conduct if they asked him or her to move, or would you say that's just "misplaced anger"?

There is a big difference between your situation and what happened, at least from the point of view of the airline.

In you analogy WPB is just a racist and he has no rights to move or have the other person moved so no effort is needed to accommodate his bigotry.

In this situation the airline asked if she would like to move. They did not demand she move and accommodated her right to stay when she said no. They still had a duty to at least try and accommodate the religious guy though as he does have freedom of religion to manifest his beliefs in public. Orthodox jews who are not married or related are not allowed to touch each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut

I agree with Oling that the airline attendant did what he should have and from a legal point of view needed to do to cover his and the airlines ass.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CASe333

There is a big difference between your situation and what happened, at least from the point of view of the airline.

In you analogy WPB is just a racist and he has no rights to move or have the other person moved so no effort is needed to accommodate his bigotry.

In this situation the airline asked if she would like to move. They did not demand she move and accommodated her right to stay when she said no. They still had a duty to at least try and accommodate the religious guy though as he does have freedom of religion to manifest his beliefs in public. Orthodox jews who are not married or related are not allowed to touch each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut

I agree with Oling that the airline attendant did what he should have and from a legal point of view needed to do to cover his and the airlines ass.

According to this thread, he does not.

[Minnie]

I guess I just don't understand why they even asked her, there just wasn't any reason to. When the other guy offered up his seat, they should have just told the guy to sit there, and not bothered asking the woman, period.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Swarly

This whole thing is dumb and blown way out of proportion by this woman. I have been asked to trade seats before, I did not feel like I was owed some great apology or some human rights tribunal to be called.

Were you asked to move because someone's superstitions deemed you an unacceptable person to sit next to? Or was it something more innocuous? There might be a difference.

Like, if someone asked me to switch seats because they wanted to sit closer to their kid, or next to their girlfriend, or whatever, that's one thing and I'd do it.

If some old buzzard won't even look at me and refuses to sit next to me based on "his beliefs", then eff him.

I've bitched to airlines before about bad service. If that bad service was a flight attendant asking me to change seats because another passenger doesn't think I'm worthy, then goddamn rights I'll complain, and I'd expect an apology.

[EldrickOnIce]

^ So we only respect religious/cultural freedom if it conforms to 'our' own sense of what is proper?
Perhaps this guy should 'go back to his own home' if he wants to practice his faith?

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Were you asked to move because someone's superstitions deemed you an unacceptable person to sit next to? Or was it something more innocuous? There might be a difference.

Like, if someone asked me to switch seats because they wanted to sit closer to their kid, or next to their girlfriend, or whatever, that's one thing and I'd do it.

If some old buzzard won't even look at me and refuses to sit next to me based on "his beliefs", then eff him.

I've bitched to airlines before about bad service. If that bad service was a flight attendant asking me to change seats because another passenger doesn't think I'm worthy, then goddamn rights I'll complain, and I'd expect an apology.

Your language is really important here. From my understanding they did not demand or ask her to move like you have implied, they asked if she wanted to move after someone else offered to switch places with her. She did not so they respected her wishes.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Perhaps this guy should 'go back to his own home' if he wants to practice his faith?

Pretty much. If 'practicing your faith' means that other people have to kowtow to your irrational beliefs, then stay home and practice your faith there.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Minnie

I guess I just don't understand why they even asked her, there just wasn't any reason to. When the other guy offered up his seat, they should have just told the guy to sit there, and not bothered asking the woman, period.

I think the point here is the guy giving up his seat had a window and was ready to trade for her window seat. He didn't offer to trade with the religious dudes seat so they asked her.

[Minnie]

Eh, if a person is going to kick up that much of a stink, they should just be told to flap hard and maybe they'll be able to fly to their destination.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Pretty much. If 'practicing your faith' means that other people have to kowtow to your irrational beliefs, then stay home and practice your faith there.

I didn't mean stay home... I meant move back to your own country.

And I don't entirely disagree with you. I am just saying we should stop trying to pretend we are a society that is open and tolerant of others. This thread is a perfect example. We are all bigots - we just generally express it less angrily than the guy who got fired last week.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Pretty much. If 'practicing your faith' means that other people have to kowtow to your irrational beliefs, then stay home and practice your faith there.

Ha ha I didn't mean to thank your post just quote it I still think you are awesome though so thanks for that!

The thing is she never had to move or even to talk to the religious dude so I am not sure how her rights were infringed?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CASe333

Your language is really important here. From my understanding they did not demand or ask her to move like you have implied, they asked if she wanted to move after someone else offered to switch places with her. She did not so they respected her wishes.

I think my language is alright. The word demand wasn't included or implied. They asked her to move, like you said.

Maybe you'd be hunky-dory if you were asked to move seats because someone doesn't think you are worthy. I wouldn't.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Eh, if a person is going to kick up that much of a stink, they should just be told to flap hard and maybe they'll be able to fly to their destination.

Who is kicking up more stink, her or him?

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I think my language is alright. The word demand wasn't included or implied. They asked her to move, like you said.

Maybe you'd be hunky-dory if you were asked to move seats because someone doesn't think you are worthy. I wouldn't.

There is a big difference in asking someone to move and asking them if they would like to move. That is my point so no I never said they asked her to move. They were just trying to be hospitable to her wishes.

[Nyah]

Let's say it was a Muslim who refused to sit next to a Jewish man or vice versa. Would the same protocol have been followed by the flight attendant? Would it have been acceptable for her to ask the Jewish/Muslim man to move because the other refused to sit next to M or J? Of course it wouldn't have been. It would've been a huge outcry of discrimination. So why is it acceptable for someone to ask a woman to move seats because a man refuses to sit next to her? Why is she deemed self entitled and a dolt for demanding an apology for such things? I don't understand this.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Nyah

Let's say it was a Muslim who refused to sit next to a Jewish man or vice versa. Would the same protocol have been followed by the flight attendant? Would it have been acceptable for her to ask the Jewish/Muslim man to move because the other refused to sit next to M or J? Of course it wouldn't have been. It would've been a huge outcry of discrimination. So why is it acceptable for someone to ask a woman to move seats because a man refuses to sit next to her? Why is she deemed self entitled and a dolt for demanding an apology for such things? I don't understand this.

It's really about freedom of religion.
As incredibly ridiculous as it sounds to me - their faith dictates that, if not married, they are not allowed to come in any physical contact whatsoever with a member of the opposite sex who is not family. It has nothing to do with worthiness. It is impossible to sit beside someone on a plane and not come in contact with them.
The Charter guarantees him the right to publicly manifest his beliefs.
Perhaps we need to change that.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Nyah

Let's say it was a Muslim who refused to sit next to a Jewish man or vice versa. Would the same protocol have been followed by the flight attendant? Would it have been acceptable for her to ask the Jewish/Muslim man to move because the other refused to sit next to M or J? Of course it wouldn't have been. It would've been a huge outcry of discrimination. So why is it acceptable for someone to ask a woman to move seats because a man refuses to sit next to her? Why is she deemed self entitled and a dolt for demanding an apology for such things? I don't understand this.

First of all no one in this thread has called her a dolt for demanding an apology. We pretty much all agree that intolerant religions should go by the wayside.

That said I would expect the protocol to be exactly the same in that situation. Try to figure out a situation where a conflict is avoided by sitting them in different seats.

[Nyah]

And that's fine, and all the power to them. Honestly, I have nothing against that. Although if that is part of their religion, should they not make extra concessions when booking a flight to ensure that their religious needs are met? Rather than inconveniencing other passengers on the flight? This is where the issue lies with me. He is the one with the issue, not her. I would be equally is outraged.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by CASe333

First of all no one in this thread has called her a dolt for demanding an apology.

Ummm...

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

My issue isn't that she's complaining about the sexism, it's that she's somehow demanding an apology from the airline and flight attendant for handling the matter properly and in a professional way. She's really detracting from her message by wrongfully blaming the airline. Just makes her look like a dolt too.

This is where my issue lies. In blaming her for feeling discriminated against and others thinking of her as such.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Nyah

And that's fine, and all the power to them. Honestly, I have nothing against that. Although if that is part of their religion, should they not make extra concessions when booking a flight to ensure that their religious needs are met? Rather than inconveniencing other passengers on the flight? This is where the issue lies with me. He is the one with the issue, not her. I would be equally is outraged.

I agree with this. He is the instigator so he needs to either buy a second seat or talk to the airlines beforehand and figure something out that makes sense. He is the one at fault here and shouldn't expect others to concede to his beliefs.

The airline and attendant definitely are not at fault though from my point of view.