He is actually allowed to believe that, right. You know we do have a Charter that guarantees religious freedoms?
Yes, he can believe whatever he wants. However, the same charter protects her and says that he should move to accommodate his own belief. He cannot impose that belief on her and assume she should move. His belief is his and he can take it down the aisle to an empty seat allowing him to maintain his integrity and abiding by Canadian Laws surrounding gender equality. There is absolutely no way he should be allowed to push his belief onto her and ask her to move.
Yes, he can believe whatever he wants. However, the same charter protects her and says that he should move to accommodate his own belief. He cannot impose that belief on her and assume she should move. His belief is his and he can take it down the aisle to an empty seat allowing him to maintain his integrity and abiding by Canadian Laws surrounding gender equality. There is absolutely no way he should be allowed to push his belief onto her and ask her to move.
This makes absolutely no sense. Of course he should be allowed to do that, and in fact, he did. Of course it was rude, and unfair, but there is something like a proportionate response that is missing from all this fuss. She could have moved, rolled her eyes, understood that everyone else on the plane was doing their best to be accommodating, and moved on.
Haha, the classic "If you're not tolerant of my intolerance then you're the real bigot!" response.
That's the point though Rube. I know what I am. I don't pretend to be different. Better. I have little tolerance for these 'customs'. I find them offensive. I would like to kick those that follow archaic, sexist customs. Therefore, I am a bigot.
I don't believe I get to move the bar, like most here believe they are entitled to do... And call it something else.
Clearly he is the marginal person here. The inconvenience to everyone involved was very slight, and is outweighed by the vast outpouring of anti-religious sentiment, that has, in this thread involved the recommendation that men of this kind be killed.
I assume this is in reference to me. Which, again, I never insinuated he be killed. I would just prefer he (and everyone like him. Not Jewish people, discriminatory people) dies away sooner rather than later and without passing this ridiculousness to anyone else.
As for your who will "win" (is this a competition?) in 50 years. As the global population becomes more educated than their parents, yes atheism will take hold. Not the combative atheism we see today that is, in itself, becoming some form of religion. I just mean in it's literal form (ie, we are all atheist meaning not theist). And no one will consider anything else because there's no basis for anything else. And then, hopefully, people will stop fighting about stupid things (like who God wants your to sit beside) and we can solve some actual problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12
This makes absolutely no sense. Of course he should be allowed to do that, and in fact, he did. Of course it was rude, and unfair, but there is something like a proportionate response that is missing from all this fuss. She could have moved, rolled her eyes, understood that everyone else on the plane was doing their best to be accommodating, and moved on.
Why should we be accommodating this? There's literally no reason that we should let these types of people think it's OK that they make these requests by just rolling our eyes and going along with it, or it will just be perpetuated. Why should he be allowed to do that? Why should a whole plane try to tetris themselves around so they can make room for the one guy who, for completely unfounded reasons, won't sit beside 1/2 the plane's (and the globe's) population? Please provide a reason as to why he should be allowed to do this?
I think everyone would agree she could have just moved. But that's not the point. This thought process needs to be weeded out, and the only way to do it is to call people on their utter bull****.
This makes absolutely no sense. Of course he should be allowed to do that, and in fact, he did. Of course it was rude, and unfair, but there is something like a proportionate response that is missing from all this fuss. She could have moved, rolled her eyes, understood that everyone else on the plane was doing their best to be accommodating, and moved on.
As a straight, white male who will never be affected on any tangible level by bigotry and discrimination, I feel it's poor form to lecture those who are affected by (often daily) by bigotry and discrimination on what their response should be.
This makes absolutely no sense. Of course he should be allowed to do that, and in fact, he did. Of course it was rude, and unfair, but there is something like a proportionate response that is missing from all this fuss. She could have moved, rolled her eyes, understood that everyone else on the plane was doing their best to be accommodating, and moved on.
Did you read the article? She says if he had asked she would have accommodated him. However, he simply ignored her and assumed she should move. The attendant asked her as this guy is too high on himself to lower himself to ask. I don't see why she should even be asked, why can't he lift his a$$ out of the seat and move? Even simpler way to deal with it.
As a straight, white male who will never be affected on any tangible level by bigotry and discrimination, I feel it's poor form to lecture those who are affected by (often daily) by bigotry and discrimination on what their response should be.
How do you know who I am?
My point was a fair, and free point regarding the conduct of citizens in a liberal democracy.
Unfortunately, most people are so subsumed with the current trend of sentimental humanism that they get distracted from the real way one must live their life with other people.
For the record, I am being contrarian. I am not sure if the woman should have complained or not, but I am certainly far more on her side from a personal perspective.
I assumed you were talking about the Hasidics in NYC. I don't have much to say other than you are probably imposing some of your own stereotypes on them.
Yep, after living and working with them, seeing the good and bad, Ive developed my own general opinions. Is that really such a bad thing? Or are we not allowed to have any negative thoughts of anyone anymore?
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That's the point though Rube. I know what I am. I don't pretend to be different. Better. I have little tolerance for these 'customs'. I find them offensive. I would like to kick those that follow archaic, sexist customs. Therefore, I am a bigot.
I don't believe I get to move the bar, like most here believe they are entitled to do... And call it something else.
Okay, I misunderstood your point at first. I don't wish violence on these people, and I don't think they should have to give up their beliefs in private. However, I don't believe you get to impose your private beliefs on the public sphere when they discriminate or marginalize others.
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My point was a fair, and free point regarding the conduct of citizens in a liberal democracy.
Unfortunately, most people are so subsumed with the current trend of sentimental humanism that they get distracted from the real way one must live their life with other people.
I think the sentimental humanists are much more accommodating than you give them credit for.
I don't think it's unreasonable for her to demand an apology from the airline for the sole simple reason that they happily and effectively indulged the other passengers intolerant bigotry.
Think about it: Passenger A doesn't want to sit next to Passenger B because of a belief system. Lets say Passenger A is wearing a confederate flag baseball cap and Passenger B is a different skin pigment than Passenger A. Should the airline indulge this and ask people to move around or just ask white power Bill to leave the plane and find another mode of transport?
Just swap out the baseball cap and skin pigment with an orthodox outfit and a vagina.
I don't know about the apology part, but #### him. He doesn't like it, he can move. He can also make better arrangements and make his needs known prior to booking his ticket, next time he flies. Religion or not, and speaking broadly/generally, if you're going to be a picky Peter/Polly, then the onus is on you to figure out seating that meets your "needs."
Now, were the airline to offer me a seat in first class, to move to accomodate the arsebite, I might consider it, lol. Otherwise, the person can pound sand.
I don't think it's unreasonable for her to demand an apology from the airline for the sole simple reason that they happily and effectively indulged the other passengers intolerant bigotry.
Think about it: Passenger A doesn't want to sit next to Passenger B because of a belief system. Lets say Passenger A is wearing a confederate flag baseball cap and Passenger B is a different skin pigment than Passenger A. Should the airline indulge this and ask people to move around or just ask white power Bill to leave the plane and find another mode of transport?
Just swap out the baseball cap and skin pigment with an orthodox outfit and a vagina.
Excellent point. If a white guy didn't want to sit next to a black guy, would the airline politely ask the black guy to move to get things going? And if they did, would the black guy be labelled self-entitled for demanding an apology? Of course not.
I assumed you were talking about the Hasidics in NYC. I don't have much to say other than you are probably imposing some of your own stereotypes on them.
I don't think he is. They are the same in Israel, maybe even worse. I've had to deal with them on numerous flights, and have been accosted by them looking for hand-outs in Jerusalem, among other things. I have had the occasional ok experience with them, but that was not the norm.
Excellent point. If a white guy didn't want to sit next to a black guy, would the airline politely ask the black guy to move to get things going? And if they did, would the black guy be labelled self-entitled for demanding an apology? Of course not.
We are either tolerant of cultural/religious practices, or we are not. We don't get to move the bar to where we see fit.
By definition, the woman is clearly a bigot.
I'd say that bar is set roughly around the point where those religious beliefs conflict with someone else's personal rights. Not to say that's what this was, as the story is a little more complicated than that.
I'm of the view that just because someone's religious beliefs demand that they treat women as sub-human, that doesn't make it right, and I won't respect that aspect of it at all. In fact, I'll call it what it is... wrong. I don't care that it's what you 'believe' because the fancy book from your religion told you to, it's still wrong IMO. I just don't buy the whole angle of "I'm religious so I have a badge to be sexist and homophobic". I'm all for accommodating religious people where possible (ie staffrooms at work, police wearing turbans, etc) as long as it isn't at someone else's expense.
The guy can have that belief all he wants (that's not my point). It looks like he didn't ask the woman directly to move because he doesn't respect her as a human being, but the airline shouldn't have even got involved. They should've just said: "Oh you don't want to sit next to your perceived 'lesser', well I guess you can start asking people to switch seats if you want but we're not getting involved with this, it's sexist and we won't support that." But he didn't even ask them to get involved, they just did. I think that's why this woman is mad. She's obviously also mad that this guy designates her as less than human, but I think she's mostly offended the airline tried to help facilitate this guy's 14th century thinking at her expense. I think most women would feel offended over this and rightfully so.
If all that makes me a bigot, so be it... I guess I'm a bigot.
It's pretty sad that we still have large segments of society that are more upset when a woman complains about a blatant act of sexism than the actual act itself.
My issue isn't that she's complaining about the sexism, it's that she's somehow demanding an apology from the airline and flight attendant for handling the matter properly and in a professional way. She's really detracting from her message by wrongfully blaming the airline. Just makes her look like a dolt too.
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My issue isn't that she's complaining about the sexism, it's that she's somehow demanding an apology from the airline and flight attendant for handling the matter properly and in a professional way. She's really detracting from her message by wrongfully blaming the airline. Just makes her look like a dolt too.
I think the analogy posted by others is apt here. If this were a case of white person refusing to sit beside a black guy, would it be acceptable behaviour for the flight assistant to ask the black guy to move?
I understand the initial outrage with the religious man 'refusing' to acknowledge her in trying to come up with a way to accommodate everyone. I also recognize her anger in being in that situation at all simply because she was female. That's fair.
I don't understand why she is looking for an apology from the airline. The man didn't request she move, it wasn't even the airline attendant that requested she move. It was a Good Samaritan who originally offered to switch seats with the lady. When she refused, they found a place for the religious man. How else should the attendant have behaved? Someone was willing to switch seats with her, why wouldn't the attendant see if that was okay? The airline staff did not inconvenience her, the religious man did.
Pretty much this, don't really understand the Jewish guys point of view. But I also don't understand why or how I am reading about this, the airline, the crew, and even other passengers took the actions to appease both passengers successfully. She didn't have to move, he didn't have to sit beside a woman.
