So I've got my final walk through with my builder this week..

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Azure

As someone who also workers in the industry, in my opinion the builders and designers are almost always the problem. We have dealt with 3-4 unreasonable home owners but for the most part they are never a problem to work with.

Most issues with a home build stem from designers who have no clue how the actual 'build' works, i.e. they don't know how to frame a wall, to the builders not being able to schedule stuff properly. In other words if you're still painting, the cabinets should not be delivered or installed. Who will pay for the damages to the cabinet doors when they are properly covered by painters who got lazy? From there everything snowballs.

Home owners who are proactive in the build of their home and demand to talk to the actually people MAKING the product; such as the cabinet manufacturer, flooring guy, painter, etc, etc.....they will have the least amount of issues because their message is being conveyed properly. As a home owner if you leave that to the project manager, good luck. Unless he is superman, chances are he'll screw up.

Good home builders get the customer involved from the start and make sure they have face to face meetings and sitdowns with everyone involved in their home build. That means a sit down with the electrician to talk about how they want their home theatre room wired up, or if they want Cat6 in every room, etc, etc. It means sitting down and talking about the cabinets, and what they expect, and how different designs affect the price point. Do that from the start and you'll have a much more satisfying result.

As for the walk through, write everything down and be reasonable. The issues aren't a big problem if everything is recorded and dealt with. Having to get the different trades in time and time again to fix problems because the project manager keeps forgetting about the different issues is a huge hassle.

Lol. You must build about 1 house per year.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Drummer

Actually the Alberta Government requires all home inspectors to be licensed:
http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/1773.cfm

Originally Posted by Drummer

Actually the Alberta Government requires all home inspectors to be licensed:
http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/1773.cfm

You pay fees and take home study courses, and then pay more fees to take multiple choice exams. Then you can be licensed. Literally anyone can do it, as long as you've got about $1000 and can read/memorize well enough to pass some multiple choice tests.

I'd way rather have an experienced home construction or home renovation person do a walk through with me. In my case I have that at home so it's a bit easier to dismiss home inspectors. But yeah. I bought several homes before I met my husband and the home inspection was useless. Like what $100,000 problem is the inspector going to identify that hasn't already been identified and disclosed by the seller and/or sellers agent. Which leads to another idea, hire a competent realtor.

"Home constructed in the 50's? Beware, it may have asbestos." Awesome, thanks. Totally worth $500. Old homes may have asbestos and the home inspector can't confirm or deny the presence of asbestos anyways. Or Radon.

Honestly, who is walking away from home purchases over a home inspectors advice? If you're worried about Radon, get a Radon specialist out. If you're worried about asbestos, get an asbestos specialist. If you're worried about the roof, get a roofer out. If you're worried abiut the foundation, get a foundation specialist out. Look at the age of the furnace and hot water tank yourself. Check that permits have been pulled for any renovations. I dunno. I get that houses come with risk but I don't think home inspectors genuinely mitigate any of that risk for a home buyer because they are so busy covering their own butts to ensure they never have go actually use that insurance policy they carry. And they aren't specialists at anything. At best they are a competent generalist and at worst they are some person who passed a few multiple choice exams and has no actual home construction knowledge.

ANYWAYS. Good luck with the walk through Green Lantern. Apologies for the thread jack.

[GreenLantern]

I think it's a worth while discussion and there has been a lot of good points brought up. This thread will serve as a good resource for future searchers. Thanks everyone.

I did a mini walk through with my contractor buddy today he took a look at the major areas and said he was impressed with the quality. He pretty much reiterated what has been said in this threD about being reasonable and trying to keep it at eye level or eye sore, don't get on your hands and knees with a magnifying glass.

All of this advice has helped me figure out the concerns I want to raise tomorrow so thanks again and here goes.

[calgaryblood]

Funny Peanut I actually have walked away from a home because of a home inspectors advice. They don't just "check roofs" and the stuff anyone can do. My guy actually put a camera in the pipes and said they had to be replaced because of them being cracked. It would have been a $10,000 fix and they wouldn't budge on price so I walked away.

It's great you have someone in the house that knows a thing or two about homes but not everyone has that luxury. That would have literally bankrupted me if I bought the house and found out about that later. For $350 I saved myself a major headache.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Once again, I don't have an issue with the house settling and eventually causing a crack. My issue is with a brand new house with concrete only a few weeks old already having cracks going the whole length of the floor. And those cracks being considered acceptable. To me that isn't a sign of the settling; more of a poor prep job.

Especially in a basement where the concrete was not exposed to the elements when it cured.

I haven't seen your house so can't comment specifically but I do agree there are some bad trades out there who really shouldn't be working but because of them undercutting prices and home owners really not understanding what good quality is things get overlooked and they get swept under the rug and off to another house to continue their crappy workmanship.

Hopefully everything works out for you and your new house. It really annoys me when trades people do bad quality jobs, and nothing is done about it. If you just moved in its not too late to have things fixed you think were done wrong.

[GreenLantern]

One last question. My wife and I did our own little walk through of the house last night and made a list of the major and minor things we'd like to see addressed. Things from the front door being warped and not closing properly to some shabby work where the tile and laminate meet. I am going to type it all out today with room for notes under each point and want to go through each of them with him. Is it normal procedure for a builder to sign and date such a list after the walk through is complete? Basically agreeing that they recognize these problems and they will be fixed. From the sounds of things on his end he won't be bringing any tape or a check list.. he more sees it as a chance for us to ask questions about the furnace or the windows.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Great thread, lots of different perspectives and good advice. A couple of things from my perspective:
Home inspection: While paying $500 shouldn't be a big deal when making the largest purchase of your life, understand what you are paying for. As Peanut alludes to, most inspectors only conduct a "visual" inspection. Their report is very clear that they have no opinion on anything that isn't open to visual inspection (meaning all of the radon, foundational issues if covered by drywall, electrical and plumbing issues are already off the table).
Builders: Too late for GreenLantern, but I think if you are waiting until the inspection to address deficiencies, it is already too late. It is important to regularly schedule walk throughs during the build. Bring some Timmies and chat with the guys doing the work.
Walk-through: Don't bring a magnifying glass to inspect every inch of paint or tiling. Be reasonable and my experience is the inspector will find issues that you don't even notice. Just have a good idea of what is in your plan. Did you add a plug, or an extra light? Those are the things they can fix (and even better if you find these issues on earlier walk-throughs).

[EldrickOnIce]

^ All of it excellent advice.
Regarding walk throughs. When we built previously, we walked through often. Timmies if it was morning, ice caps if hot in the afternoon. The guys doing the work will tell/show you more than any inspection ever will - point out things, good or bad, while it can easily be corrected/changed at the time. Plus you make it personal to them - they are building your home. I think it makes a difference.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Azure

Home owners who are proactive in the build of their home and demand to talk to the actually people MAKING the product; such as the cabinet manufacturer, flooring guy, painter, etc, etc....

I use the same philosophy when I buy electronics, you can't imagine how much money and trouble it's saved me over the years. Why, just last month when I needed a new TV, I flew over to China to the LED panel factory and demanded to talk to Wu, as he was the one who was going to oversee the final assembly of the OEM unit that would go into the Sony I picked out. I explained to him that I wanted an equal number of each colour pixel, and that the aspect ratio of the screen needed to be exact 16"9, and not 161:89 or some approximation, like they try to foist off on the uninformed.

He asked me if I had any experience in designing televisions or industrial processes, but I put a stop to that pretty sharply - the customer is always right! Unfortunately my pulling him off the line for an hour backed up production and a thousand TVs that were supposed to go to Australia ended u being delayed for a week due to missing their container ship, but that's on Wu, not me , if you can't make time to talk to random clueless people while doing your actual job, you're not much of a worker, are you?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

One last question. My wife and I did our own little walk through of the house last night and made a list of the major and minor things we'd like to see addressed. Things from the front door being warped and not closing properly to some shabby work where the tile and laminate meet. I am going to type it all out today with room for notes under each point and want to go through each of them with him. Is it normal procedure for a builder to sign and date such a list after the walk through is complete? Basically agreeing that they recognize these problems and they will be fixed. From the sounds of things on his end he won't be bringing any tape or a check list.. he more sees it as a chance for us to ask questions about the furnace or the windows.

My builder had a checklist where he made notes, and then we signed off on a few things. There were a few things that he refused to write down; either because he didn't see them as an issue, or because he was going to take care of them before he left that day.

A couple of the things that he didn't see as an issue, I was able to escalate and have repaired. There are a couple of other issues that I am still fighting them on. There were also a couple of things that he said he would take care of before he left, and didn't. Once again some of those have been fixed, and one of them he is denying the conversation ever took place.

This is why I suggested a camcorder for the whole thing. I would even go so far as to buy a Go Pro that you can wear. May look silly, but it gets everything said recorded.

[GreenLantern]

Thanks Ken, ya I am definitely going to be recording the conversation. I am thinking it is smart because at the end of September the suite will be done and he will want the remaining mortgage money to be released, so I can quote the conversation to get what I want fixed before he gets the rest of his money.. if it ends up taking that long.

Also to be clear we have been allowed full access to the house as it has been built, we've visited multiple times a week since it started and already changed things and had things added or removed that we liked or didn't like. I've got all the trades guys numbers and have had conversations with them and found that it is actually easier to deal with them directly the majority of the time. Just this morning I met our electrician there to move some USB plug ins around to the spots we wanted them in, no problem took him 10 minutes and it was a 2 minute phone call. When the framers were working I dropped off a cooler full of water, gatorade and energy drinks on a +30 day and came back they had added a nice privacy wall on my deck for me. Came back when the guy was doing the siding with a coffee and he carried the vinyl all the way to the end of it. So I agree with that advice, get involved with the trades guys as much as you are allowed or they will allow as it has a lot of benefits.

[troutman]

I have not heard of a link between radon and cancer before.

What evidence I can find:

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerc...ollution/radon

http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/c...don-fact-sheet

http://www.epa.gov/radon/healthrisks.html

http://www.ukradon.org/information/risks

[Fuzz]

If anyone is interested I did a radon test last year. Really easy, you just leave a collector in your basement for a few months and send it in. I think it was $50-$100. Mine came back at 110 Bq/m3

US Limit: 150 Bq/m3
Canadian Limit 200 Bq/m3

Used these guys:
http://www.radoncontrol.ca/radon-a-g...omeowners.html

To add to Troutman's links-
Health Canada
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/radi.../index-eng.php

Map of Radon tests and results in Canada
http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/radon-in-canada/

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jammies

I use the same philosophy when I buy electronics, you can't imagine how much money and trouble it's saved me over the years. Why, just last month when I needed a new TV, I flew over to China to the LED panel factory and demanded to talk to Wu, as he was the one who was going to oversee the final assembly of the OEM unit that would go into the Sony I picked out. I explained to him that I wanted an equal number of each colour pixel, and that the aspect ratio of the screen needed to be exact 16"9, and not 161:89 or some approximation, like they try to foist off on the uninformed.

He asked me if I had any experience in designing televisions or industrial processes, but I put a stop to that pretty sharply - the customer is always right! Unfortunately my pulling him off the line for an hour backed up production and a thousand TVs that were supposed to go to Australia ended u being delayed for a week due to missing their container ship, but that's on Wu, not me , if you can't make time to talk to random clueless people while doing your actual job, you're not much of a worker, are you?

I knew it was Wu! Even when I knew it was the North Koreans I knew it was Wu!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. You must build about 1 house per year.

Not actually a builder. I work for a cabinet manufacturer.

We deal with the biggest home builders in Winnipeg and they are all morons. At least the project managers are. Hard to believe everyone working in the offices of these companies are also idiots.

Most issues are because they are on timelines, and apparently when you deal with a timeline, all semblance of common sense goes out the window.

There is no reason a home build should be stressful. If it takes a day or two extra to do things right, take a day or two extra. If you aren't scheduled for that, everything is doomed anyways.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

^ All of it excellent advice.
Regarding walk throughs. When we built previously, we walked through often. Timmies if it was morning, ice caps if hot in the afternoon. The guys doing the work will tell/show you more than any inspection ever will - point out things, good or bad, while it can easily be corrected/changed at the time. Plus you make it personal to them - they are building your home. I think it makes a difference.

It makes a HUGE difference. I would go even further and get involved outside of the home build. DEMAND to sit down with your cabinet manufacturer, electrician, flooring guy, etc, etc. Get THEIR perspective on the work they are doing for you. Like I said, the biggest issues are the builders, i.e. the project manager, and whoever is in charge of the design. Neither of these people are actually doing the work, and therefore have pretty much no clue what is going on. I can guarantee you if you go directly the the cabinet manufacturer while he is in the process of building your cabinets, and work with him on a week to week basis regarding what your wants are, everything will go so much better. Hell, ask to talk to whoever is installing the cabinets. Ask him how it will work best for them. Our installers hate to work in a house that is being painted in the other rooms for obvious reasons. The project manager has no bloody clue about this because he's not actually doing the work. Things like that make a difference in the long run.

That is talking from experience.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jammies

I use the same philosophy when I buy electronics, you can't imagine how much money and trouble it's saved me over the years. Why, just last month when I needed a new TV, I flew over to China to the LED panel factory and demanded to talk to Wu, as he was the one who was going to oversee the final assembly of the OEM unit that would go into the Sony I picked out. I explained to him that I wanted an equal number of each colour pixel, and that the aspect ratio of the screen needed to be exact 16"9, and not 161:89 or some approximation, like they try to foist off on the uninformed.

He asked me if I had any experience in designing televisions or industrial processes, but I put a stop to that pretty sharply - the customer is always right! Unfortunately my pulling him off the line for an hour backed up production and a thousand TVs that were supposed to go to Australia ended u being delayed for a week due to missing their container ship, but that's on Wu, not me , if you can't make time to talk to random clueless people while doing your actual job, you're not much of a worker, are you?

A lot of home builders use locally sourced material. Especially when it comes to cabinets.

But hey, nice job being such an ass about it.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Azure

It makes a HUGE difference. I would go even further and get involved outside of the home build. DEMAND to sit down with your cabinet manufacturer, electrician, flooring guy, etc, etc. Get THEIR perspective on the work they are doing for you.

This is just hilarious. DEMAND to talk to the cabinet guy? The electrician? The tile guy? Hahahahaha. So all of these companies are supposed to send their installers to a meet n'greet with every home owner? And when are we scheduling this for, Mr. Jones? Oh, on Saturday? Ok, we'll work all week installing tile, and then spend our weekends having nice little meetings where we tell them what ratio the grout mixture is going to be, and what type of silicone gun is gonna be used to seal the kitchen splash.

Are you even listening to yourself? You're a cabinet guy and you actually want to meet every home owner? That's hundreds of houses per year! When will you have time for this?

Isn't your job to get dimensions from the builder, then manufacture and install? And if something is wrong, you look at what the builder sent you, then look at what is installed, and whose ever fault it is, pays for it. Pretty easy. No need to scare the homeowner into thinking that their house is going to catch fire because the cabinets are wrong. Seriously. WTF are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Azure

Like I said, the biggest issues are the builders, i.e. the project manager, and whoever is in charge of the design. Neither of these people are actually doing the work, and therefore have pretty much no clue what is going on. I can guarantee you if you go directly the the cabinet manufacturer while he is in the process of building your cabinets, and work with him on a week to week basis regarding what your wants are, everything will go so much better. Hell, ask to talk to whoever is installing the cabinets. Ask him how it will work best for them. Our installers hate to work in a house that is being painted in the other rooms for obvious reasons. The project manager has no bloody clue about this because he's not actually doing the work. Things like that make a difference in the long run.

That is talking from experience.

The project manager (or site supe) should know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in every one of my sites every single day. Every site, every day. Each one. All of them. Every trade at every site. Every day.

It's called a schedule. Pretty simple stuff. It seems like you think that cabinets are the pivotal point of home construction, but it's just another 2-5 days in the schedule. And whatever you fellas do wrong, I will probably catch before walkthrough. And if not, then the homeowner will, and you will send your service guy over within a day or two to fix it. At least my cabinet guys do. No problems over here. And not one homeowner had to sacrifice an extra minute of their time to sit down with a tradesman that values his or her time just as much. That's what the selection center is for. The homeowner makes their selections, and we build it. Very.Simple.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by 4X4

This is just hilarious. DEMAND to talk to the cabinet guy? The electrician? The tile guy? Hahahahaha. So all of these companies are supposed to send their installers to a meet n'greet with every home owner? And when are we scheduling this for, Mr. Jones? Oh, on Saturday? Ok, we'll work all week installing tile, and then spend our weekends having nice little meetings where we tell them what ratio the grout mixture is going to be, and what type of silicone gun is gonna be used to seal the kitchen splash.

From my experience, people who go for a custom home build don't really know what they're getting and rely way to much on the builders and designers to do everything FOR them, instead of having an active involvement in the build of their OWN home. It is a once in a lifetime event for most people, and yet for some reason they are content with letting someone else make sure all their needs are met. People have to take camcorders into a walkthrough and videotape everything? We've dealt with some pretty stupid and demanding customers who were completely out of this world unrealistic with their demands, i.e. they wanted something that wasn't physically possible(no cracks in the cement EVER kind of deal) and they still never videotaped. You gotta get involved beforehand. Talking to the electrician while he is working there is pretty simple stuff. Just have a conversation about what the project manager has him doing, and what you actually WANT, and make sure everyone is on the same page. Again, from my experience, this is often a huge problem. People want simple stuff like Cat6 jacks in all rooms, and it never happens because the project manager never made sure to indicate that 'small' detail. Guess what? Getting it afterwards when the walls are closed up and everything is painted tends to be a headache.

Are you even listening to yourself? You're a cabinet guy and you actually want to meet every home owner? That's hundreds of houses per year! When will you have time for this?

We are a custom shop so hell yes we want to meet every single homeowner. Cabinets in a lot of the home builds we are part of run around $60-100k, and considering the kitchen is something each homeowner will use every single day for the rest of their life, we want to make sure everything is dealt with properly. IMO, in order to do this properly this requires face to face meet times on multiple occasions to make sure everything is covered from the design stage right through to install. When we're not dealing with home builders or contractors we sit down and spend 4-5 hours with each customer personally designing the kitchen with them. This makes sure everything is being properly looked at, and there are no surprises. The actual install is a breeze this way.

Isn't your job to get dimensions from the builder, then manufacture and install? And if something is wrong, you look at what the builder sent you, then look at what is installed, and whose ever fault it is, pays for it. Pretty easy. No need to scare the homeowner into thinking that their house is going to catch fire because the cabinets are wrong. Seriously. WTF are you talking about?

First of all, I would never trust a builder to send me any kind of dimension. Will he pay for it when he screws up with the measurements? Most of the builders we deal with demand that we measure while they're still framing the house. By the time they have drywall on there the actual measurement is quite different from what they had intended it to be. We do all our own measuring, and would prefer to measure WITH the homeowner when the drywall is on and they're getting ready to paint. Doing this with the customer makes sure that again, everything is being covered.

The project manager (or site supe) should know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in every one of my sites every single day. Every site, every day. Each one. All of them. Every trade at every site. Every day.

My friend, you are one of few, few project managers working for home builders across Canada that works like that. There is a reason people have nightmares with this stuff. Good builders are extremely hard to find, and in the Winnipeg area, most of the builders have family ties and therefore they hire tradesmen that they 'know' as friends or relatives, and they tend not to be the best in their field. I would love to go to take you to a few job sites to watch some of these guys work. Its amazing they are still in business.

It's called a schedule. Pretty simple stuff. It seems like you think that cabinets are the pivotal point of home construction, but it's just another 2-5 days in the schedule. And whatever you fellas do wrong, I will probably catch before walkthrough. And if not, then the homeowner will, and you will send your service guy over within a day or two to fix it. At least my cabinet guys do. No problems over here. And not one homeowner had to sacrifice an extra minute of their time to sit down with a tradesman that values his or her time just as much. That's what the selection center is for. The homeowner makes their selections, and we build it. Very.Simple.

Obviously your process is a lot different than what we are doing. If you've figured it out on your end, great, but from my experience a lot of home builders have no clue what they're doing. This is why the homeowner should be involved and know what is going on. Maybe Calgary home builders are different, but there are maybe two good home builders in Winnipeg that do good work and hire the best people. The rest are pretty scary to watch work.

[4X4]

Well if you're a high end cabinet company for custom homes, then why are you in here trying to trip out a first time new home buyer? The OP has never done a walk through, so what makes you think he's on his way to a $60,000 custom cabinet install? That's right, nothing. Stop giving bad advice. No starter home or move up home buyer needs to waste their time talking to the cabinet guy. They need to be at work enjoying the idea that their home will be what the builder says it will be. If you're in custom, then it's a completely different thing, and you know it. So don't go making people think they're being crappy buyers by not "DEMANDING" to talk to the fricken cabinet guy.