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Old 07-24-2017, 12:40 PM   #1
Loyal and True
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Icon48 Discussion re salaries, escrow, signing bonuses cap hit etc

Definitely a summer topic for me. I wanted to know what some of you guys know/think about these things. If you find an issue in here that sticks out to you, I'd like to discuss it for awhile this offseason.
Here are things we already know:
-players hate escrow (or too much escrow anyway).
-there will always be some escrow because most teams spend close to the cap as opposed to the midpoint.
-the nhlpa escalator often contributes to the escrow problem.
-(I think) that escrow is based on actual salaries/bonuses paid (including those on LTIR), and not merely the cap hit.
-there have been many "cap-bending" front loaded contracts in the past, and this still happens to a lesser extent.
-these contracts (should) have the reverse effect in later years, unless the old players go on LTIR and then teams use the extra cap space to pay even more salary.
-the NHL appears to be happy with the existing CBA as it asked NHLPA to extend it during Olympic discussion


Here is an older but relevant link that gets into some of the issues. Maybe you guys can post other links that are informative?
http://nhlnumbers.com/2016/8/12/how-...ern-in-the-nhl


A few questions I have:

1. There are many signing bonuses (which are subject to escrow) to be paid in the year of potential lockout, which players intended to give themselves more leverage that year. But don't you think the escrow will be extremely high that year if there is a strong possibility of a strike/lockout?

2. Which teams have been most "successful" at paying higher salaries above the cap? How many of them also the cup winning teams? Chicago/Boston/Pit/LA

3. Which players have had the highest salaries above cap hit, and when is that going to turn around?

4. How many players have gone "Hossa" where they are LTIR in the low salary years and the team escapes the recapture penalty?

5. Do you think the CBA could be extended with minor tweaks and avoid another lockout/strike? If so, what are those tweaks going to be?
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:46 PM   #2
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I would like to see contracts tightened up a bit. An 8yr deal is still too long, IMO, and spending 7yrs on a UFA is terrifying. I would like to see this dropped by a couple years to a 5yr/6yr max.

It'd be nice to go after NTCs too. Every NTC should have to include a minimum of 5 teams that said player would be willing to waive for.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:06 PM   #3
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I also wonder if the 2020-21 season is consumed entirely by a lockout, will that mean that the players who got their signing bonuses will have to return most of it because revenue will be so low and by rule of the law they need to split everything 50/50?

I guess that would be yet another thing that would have to be negotiated coming out of that lockout.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:07 PM   #4
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5. Do you think the CBA could be extended with minor tweaks and avoid another lockout/strike? If so, what are those tweaks going to be?
Personally I think there will be a lost season as the players are really unhappy. I don't think minor tweaks will be enough.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:10 PM   #5
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Personally I think there will be a lost season as the players are really unhappy. I don't think minor tweaks will be enough.
But why are they unhappy? Escrow alone? If that's it then get over it because it's a necessary evil if you're indexed to league revenue.

Salaries keep moving up, they've added a team. I just don't get why they wouldn't want labour peace.

Ideally they'd love to get rid of the salary cap but that isn't going to happen.

Bottom line for me is the lockout protection is still only going to the best 5-10% of the union, the rest of the rank and file will be equally as screwed as the last labour stopage.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Personally I think there will be a lost season as the players are really unhappy. I don't think minor tweaks will be enough.
There will only be a lost season if the players are stupid enough to follow Don Fehr's wet dream of breaking the cap entirely. And I don't think they are that stupid, personally.

Escrow is trivially easy to fix, but that requires the two sides actually agree to do it. And it requires a short term pain of having the cap stagnate or contract slightly for a year or two - even though the real dollars each side receives would not change by a single penny.

The rest are minor issues, Olmypic participation included.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal and True View Post
1. There are many signing bonuses (which are subject to escrow) to be paid in the year of potential lockout, which players intended to give themselves more leverage that year. [B]But don't you think the escrow will be extremely high that year if there is a strong possibility of a strike/lockout?
Given the CBA will have expired, there will be no escrow at all, save what is agreed to in the subsequent CBA. I'm sure the owners could seek to apply it retroactively, but that would have to be agreed to.

As Bingo noted, what is really interesting about lockout protection is that it is designed to benefit the top 5% and screw the rest. Connor McDavid gets paid, and Connor McDavid is free to also go to Europe and steal someone else's job because Connor McDavid is special. 20 other guys on the Oilers get to collect no NHL pay and only a couple would be able to go steal a job in Europe. The pressure from the union's side is how long they can convince those 20 rank and file guys to sacrifice a portion of their own careers for McDavid's benefit, even though he's already taken care of himself.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:21 PM   #8
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Given the CBA will have expired, there will be no escrow at all, save what is agreed to in the subsequent CBA. I'm sure the owners could seek to apply it retroactively, but that would have to be agreed to.

As Bingo noted, what is really interesting about lockout protection is that it is designed to benefit the top 5% and screw the rest. Connor McDavid gets paid, and Connor McDavid is free to also go to Europe and steal someone else's job because Connor McDavid is special. 20 other guys on the Oilers get to collect no NHL pay and only a couple would be able to go steal a job in Europe. The pressure from the union's side is how long they can convince those 20 rank and file guys to sacrifice a portion of their own careers for McDavid's benefit, even though he's already taken care of himself.
Although the bonuses are paid out on July 1 and the CBA expires on September 15. Not sure how much (if at all) that complicates things.
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:59 PM   #9
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5. Do you think the CBA could be extended with minor tweaks and avoid another lockout/strike? If so, what are those tweaks going to be?
Well... that depends on what you consider to be a "minor tweak". Ultimately I think the answer is "No" and there is going to be another work stoppage.

I'm guessing that a cap on escrow & changes to the definitions of HRR will be the two biggest points of contention (probably some smaller things like Olympic participation being ensured as well and maybe some other stuff like firming up the conditions under which a contract can be voided ala Mike Richards).
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:08 PM   #10
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Another lost season would be an absolute disaster. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.

There are too many other entertainment options available, and so much of what people spend their entertainment dollar on is a simple fact of continuity. Plus, given ticket prices being already too high, the PR of millionaires fighting with billionaires -- AGAIN -- about more money than 99% of the population will make in their lifetime is not going to go well.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:10 PM   #11
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But why are they unhappy? Escrow alone? If that's it then get over it because it's a necessary evil if you're indexed to league revenue.

Salaries keep moving up, they've added a team. I just don't get why they wouldn't want labour peace.

Ideally they'd love to get rid of the salary cap but that isn't going to happen.

Bottom line for me is the lockout protection is still only going to the best 5-10% of the union, the rest of the rank and file will be equally as screwed as the last labour stopage.
I'd have to look but I thought I read somewhere there is rumbling of hidden HRR and such that has led to artifically high escrow, or at least there are some player concerns.

Just considering they went from losing a whole year to losing half a year, and things seem to be pointing to another lockout, I imagine it will be another lost half year at least.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:37 PM   #12
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Given the CBA will have expired, there will be no escrow at all, save what is agreed to in the subsequent CBA. I'm sure the owners could seek to apply it retroactively, but that would have to be agreed to.

As Bingo noted, what is really interesting about lockout protection is that it is designed to benefit the top 5% and screw the rest. ...
That would be brutal for NHL if accurate. I wonder if Sep 15 expiry date for CBA plays in as noted by another eagle eyed CPer.

I am guessing that many more (average) players will offer a lower AAV in exchange for more signing bonus if it is determined to be valuable to them. Would you agree?
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:52 PM   #13
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Another lost season would be an absolute disaster. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.

There are too many other entertainment options available, and so much of what people spend their entertainment dollar on is a simple fact of continuity. Plus, given ticket prices being already too high, the PR of millionaires fighting with billionaires -- AGAIN -- about more money than 99% of the population will make in their lifetime is not going to go well.
people say that with every lockout, and they keep coming back.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:57 PM   #14
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I can't think of how the NHL could pull off linking salaries to hockey related revenue without escrow.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:35 PM   #15
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people say that with every lockout, and they keep coming back.
I don't think it is a huge risk for the league, but it's just insanity for a player to give up a season.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:49 PM   #16
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I also wanted to bring up buyouts.

Signing bonuses are "buyout proof"

I believe buyout payments count as part of players 50% of HRR and thus cause escrow increases. Can anyone confirm?

Buyout payments count against the cap.

I don't know if buyout payments are subject to escrow withholding. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:25 PM   #17
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It'd be nice to go after NTCs too. Every NTC should have to include a minimum of 5 teams that said player would be willing to waive for.
I am of the thinking that a player with a NTC that asks or demands to be traded, that NTC should be null and void and you should be able to trade him wherever you want.

Are NTC and the like even part of the CBA or is that just an independent contractual thing?
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Loyal and True View Post
I also wanted to bring up buyouts.

Signing bonuses are "buyout proof"

I believe buyout payments count as part of players 50% of HRR and thus cause escrow increases. Can anyone confirm?

Buyout payments count against the cap.

I don't know if buyout payments are subject to escrow withholding. Can anyone confirm?


There is escrow withheld on the buyout pmt.


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Old 07-24-2017, 11:42 PM   #19
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I don't think it is a huge risk for the league, but it's just insanity for a player to give up a season.
I don't think there is a huge risk to the league either, which is why I can't understand why they'd make it a hill to die on. Get rid of both the escrow and the escalator and the league would remain stable, it's not as if some teams aren't losing money even with the escrow.

Looking at it from the players' perspective, they never liked the escrow from the get go, I'm sure they could understand it being there as a safety net when the cap was first introduced, but they tried(unsuccessfully) to get rid of it by holding out for almost half a season so if it is that important to the players they really have no other options if the league won't budge on it. I get the arguments that they get the escrow back but no one here would want to have a chunk of their salary payment differed by a year either, and the whole "they make way more than I do so it shouldn't matter" is a relatively moot point, everyone makes more or less than someone else but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who likes having their money withheld from them.
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:04 AM   #20
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Easiest way to get rid of escrow completely is to make what is now the midpoint becoming the cap. Zero escrow, and in fact players would all get a bonus cheque at seasons end depending on how well the league did (like most employees in the world).

Side bonus: Oilers will be f$&ked.
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