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Old 07-26-2014, 10:12 AM   #21
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...mily-1.2719016

"I am sorry for what happened on the flight, but Ali is not at fault," his father Shadegh Shahi said. "I blame the police and health system. We called the police for help more than 23 times in the last two to three years, but unfortunately they did nothing to help us or help my son."

Shahi became agitated when he found out the price of cigarettes on the flight was about 25 cents cheaper than what he paid at the airport and wanted to be reimbursed for the difference, family members told CBC News.

Shahi has “deep depression” that started in his teens after he was bullied for being “chubby,” according to his father and his uncle Matt Misha.

He also has gambling issues that resulted in him losing $6,000 in student loan money.

Family members say they called police on numerous occasions when Shahi became angry and started yelling. They say Shahi was picked up by officers and dropped off at a coffee shop or other places nearby because he couldn't be arrested.
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:52 AM   #22
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The police in that situation are walking into a confined space with lots of potential hostages and threats (a Sunswing 737-800 can carry up to 189 passengers).

That's 189 potential threats. The police don't know who the threat(s) are, how many, or where they will be on the plane.

They are going in blind, even with information such as description, name and assigned seat.

An a aviation threat isn't taken lightly as the plane turns from a passmnger vehicle into a missile.

Subdue the threat, eliminate it, thank people for their cooperation.

The police don't know if passenger in seat 4C is any more of a threat in that situation than in 34A. If the situation is at the point of returning the plane with military escort and armed police waiting at the Tarmac, don't Fata around and take it lightly.

If it's a misunderstanding, or one guy being a clown, you figure that out afterwards.
That is a terrible plan.

First, the cockpit is secure and you've landed. There were several people who didn't put their heads down and hands up. One even pointed a camera at them and was not even noticed. If your objective is to find a terrorist with a bomb is he really going to put his head down and hands up? Not a chance.

Also why wasn't he subdued before landing? Tie his hand behind his back and put him in his seat with his belt on. If the threat was that scary I'm sure a bunch of men would have volunteered to subdue him.

Just another over reaction after 9/11. It's not logical to think a man with a bomb will cooperate. He is more likely to detonate it if he sees men with guns coming for him
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:21 AM   #23
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You're not wrong for having these thoughts, but it simply doesn't work that way.

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That is a terrible plan.

First, the cockpit is secure and you've landed. There were several people who didn't put their heads down and hands up. One even pointed a camera at them and was not even noticed. If your objective is to find a terrorist with a bomb is he really going to put his head down and hands up? Not a chance.
These aren't highly trained counter terrorism soldiers. They're cops. Doesn't look like time allowed for a alternative to arrive. Not to take away from the PEEL regional police, they did a phenomenal job and obviously diffused this situation without harm to anybody. Also, what would you propse they do instead? You don't want to have a crowded plane just sit on the tarmac with someone claiming to have a bomb getting more and more agitated. I think they did the best thing given the situation. And obviously it worked.

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Also why wasn't he subdued before landing? Tie his hand behind his back and put him in his seat with his belt on. If the threat was that scary I'm sure a bunch of men would have volunteered to subdue him.
Subdued by who? This comes up whenever there's an incident. 'Why didn't anyone tackle the gunman when he was reloading or something?' 'Why didn't a bunch of guys team together and tackle the crazy bomber on the plane?' It simply doesn't work like that. Pretend you're in a bank when a guy comes in and pulls a gun? Even if you think you'd sneak up behind him and intervene, you don't know that until you're in that situation and know how it feels.

How much information did these passengers even have? Did they know why the plane turned back?

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Just another over reaction after 9/11. It's not logical to think a man with a bomb will cooperate. He is more likely to detonate it if he sees men with guns coming for him
If he's a well trained individual sure, but some bum with no such history is going to be pretty overwhelmed with a team of officers coming at him yelling with guns. And that was exactly the point of such a hard entry, to overwhelm the guy. And again, it clearly worked.

Like Acey said, it obviously sucks for the innocents on the plane. Nobody wants to be going on vacation and next thing you know armed officers are yelling at you. But you can't blame the cops for that, they did their jobs and protected those innocents. The 'bomber' is the one who put these people at risk.

Last edited by btimbit; 07-26-2014 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:43 AM   #24
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Send him to jail.
The price of Cigarettes in jail is more elastic than at airports.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:39 PM   #25
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I'm kind of disappointed in the cops, Harrison Ford or Steven Segal would have done a much better job.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:07 PM   #26
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I'm kind of disappointed in the cops, Harrison Ford or Steven Segal would have done a much better job.
Or Mark Walberg.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:23 PM   #27
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What happened here was that this guy thought he could yell things in frustration and not have any consequences. I think hes harmless and will probably not be treated as a threat. He probably sht his pant after what happened and won't derp like this again.

He learned that one does not simply get away with acting like that. Thats all. I don't what kind of punishment is in store for him but it won't be anything big - which makes sense.

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Old 07-26-2014, 01:26 PM   #28
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I'm kind of disappointed in the cops, Harrison Ford or Steven Segal would have done a much better job.
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Or Mark Walberg.
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:31 PM   #29
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:39 PM   #30
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What an overreaction.
People's lives are definitely being put at risk every time a situation like that is escalated to fighter escorts and SWAT teams. If thats all it was that some guy says the bomb word in anger .. with no explicit threat to the flight. (and a $1,000 bail would suggest thats the case0
I half think the plane crews don't mind the over-reactions .. no-one dares complain about a stale pretzel if thats the kind of power they have. Passengers are the ones who lose the most.
And if anyone thinks we should just trust the authorities to decide how to judge and respond to danger.. then how many passenger years have been spent taking on and off shoes and belts... and then airlines fly over a conflict zone within range of known ground to air missiles to save fuel charges.

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Old 07-26-2014, 06:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Wappel View Post
What an overreaction.
People's lives are definitely being put at risk every time a situation like that is escalated to fighter escorts and SWAT teams. If thats all it was that some guy says the bomb word in anger .. with no explicit threat to the flight. (and a $1,000 bail would suggest thats the case0
I half think the plane crews don't mind the over-reactions .. no-one dares complain about a stale pretzel if thats the kind of power they have. Passengers are the ones who lose the most.
And if anyone thinks we should just trust the authorities to decide how to judge and respond to danger.. then how many passenger years have been spent taking on and off shoes and belts... and then airlines fly over a conflict zone within range of known ground to air missiles to save fuel charges.
Terrible post. Wouldn't read again. Stick to the Calgary Sun comments section.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Wappel View Post
What an overreaction.
People's lives are definitely being put at risk every time a situation like that is escalated to fighter escorts and SWAT teams. If thats all it was that some guy says the bomb word in anger .. with no explicit threat to the flight. (and a $1,000 bail would suggest thats the case0
I half think the plane crews don't mind the over-reactions .. no-one dares complain about a stale pretzel if thats the kind of power they have. Passengers are the ones who lose the most.
And if anyone thinks we should just trust the authorities to decide how to judge and respond to danger.. then how many passenger years have been spent taking on and off shoes and belts... and then airlines fly over a conflict zone within range of known ground to air missiles to save fuel charges.
Don't trust authorities, trust uneducated amateurs?

One plane shot down means seatbelts ate a joke?

Passenger treats are spent taking shoes off?
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Gord Wappel View Post
What an overreaction.
People's lives are definitely being put at risk every time a situation like that is escalated to fighter escorts and SWAT teams. If thats all it was that some guy says the bomb word in anger .. with no explicit threat to the flight. (and a $1,000 bail would suggest thats the case0
I half think the plane crews don't mind the over-reactions .. no-one dares complain about a stale pretzel if thats the kind of power they have. Passengers are the ones who lose the most.
And if anyone thinks we should just trust the authorities to decide how to judge and respond to danger.. then how many passenger years have been spent taking on and off shoes and belts... and then airlines fly over a conflict zone within range of known ground to air missiles to save fuel charges.
So.... threats made, ignore the problem and hope it goes away?

I agree after the fact and now that we know it was just someone with mental health issues that the ERT team and fighters seemed excessive, but that's just hindsight. That wasn't known at the time and in the heat of the moment you don't take that chance without 100% certainty
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:13 PM   #34
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So.... threats made, ignore the problem and hope it goes away?
Solutions need to not actually increase the risk to the public.
I suppose we'll get to bottom of the whole story - but what's come out so far and a $1,000 bail suggest that he didn't assault anyone or directly state that he had a bomb on board, request access to the cockpit or change to flight destination.
If this is correct then the flight crews and police and military people need to be accountable and revise the procedures. Because they did create a very significant risk to a whole bunch of innocent passengers... where a very small one existed... one that could be explored by a pilot (for example) speaking with the person .. calmly .... to make sure that using the taboo word didn't mean that he actually was threatening or demanding anything dangerous.
The odds that someone who actually has a bomb - and being on board - letting it accidentally slip out of his mouth before retracting it and sitting back in his seat .... seems tiny compared to odds of a fighter pilot escort and a SWAT entry going wrong.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:40 PM   #35
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Everything depends on details, and i don't rely on what the media says about pretty much anything, and certainly aviation.

I would be curious what the crew wanted and intended. Based on what I have seen in the videos, I wonder if the crew was as surprised as anyone with the veracity of the response. I wonder if, in talking with ATC about the situation, that the bomb threat was mentioned, and from there the response escalated much more than was necessarily wanted or intended.

Having the authorities meet the aircraft, either to deal with a problem guest or to actually remove them, is not particularly uncommon. This seemed like a situation where a couple of LEO's would come on and remove the person, and the way the flight and cabin was being managed does not indicate they believed he was actually in possession of explosives or was an imminent threat to anyone.

So while it seemed like an over the top response in this case, I suppose it is better to be overly cautious than not cautious enough.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:16 AM   #36
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Terrible post. Wouldn't read again. Stick to the Calgary Sun comments section.
...where people immediately turn to personal attacks when they lack the intelligence to speak to the issue ?



"So while it seemed like an over the top response in this case, I suppose it is better to be overly cautious than not cautious enough."

- this is the part I don't agree with. In medicine this would lead to a lot of unnecessary and dangerous procedures. By propagating this saying the decision making is allowed to stay lazy - the ones who have no say in this - the public- are the ones that lose (safety, time and stress).
At least give them a say... here at CP is the only place I can have a say. The newspapers that print related stories didn't allow comments on this issue.
My MP is busy defending himself in court against the usual wrong doings so I didn't want to bother him.

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Old 07-27-2014, 12:50 PM   #37
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Solutions need to not actually increase the risk to the public.
I suppose we'll get to bottom of the whole story - but what's come out so far and a $1,000 bail suggest that he didn't assault anyone or directly state that he had a bomb on board, request access to the cockpit or change to flight destination.
If this is correct then the flight crews and police and military people need to be accountable and revise the procedures. Because they did create a very significant risk to a whole bunch of innocent passengers... where a very small one existed... one that could be explored by a pilot (for example) speaking with the person .. calmly .... to make sure that using the taboo word didn't mean that he actually was threatening or demanding anything dangerous.
The odds that someone who actually has a bomb - and being on board - letting it accidentally slip out of his mouth before retracting it and sitting back in his seat .... seems tiny compared to odds of a fighter pilot escort and a SWAT entry going wrong.
Someone on a passenger jet getting agitated and abusive, the stating he "wants to blow up Canada" while mimicking an explosion is a direct threat. Having the pilot open the cockpit that they just locked down and come out into an unknown threat environment is just stupid. His job is to keep the door locked, fly the plane and get it on the ground no matter what.

Fighter escort is perfectly reasonable. Better to have the option of terminating the flight should the flight crew lose control than have to look around on radar for the plane while it's on route to a target.

SWAT entry is also completely acceptable. Active threat in a confined location and they have no clue whether or not there are accomplices on board. The people sticking their heads and phones in the air are idiots and would only have themselves to blame if they caught a few rounds. Can guarantee Peel Regional SWAT trains on planes and at the airport a fair bit too.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:22 PM   #38
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I'm kind of disappointed in the cops, Harrison Ford or Steven Segal would have done a much better job.
Seagal on planes, not so good an idea lol



Also, you can buy smokes on planes still????
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:44 PM   #39
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The authorities did what they could to best assure the safety of everyone. I don't think this was an overreaction at all. A small team of police had to protect the city of Toronto, the airport and all the other passengers on the plane from the one guy that posed a threat. They did that. Was it scary for the people on the plane? For sure. I'll take being frightened over being truly in great danger any day.
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:03 PM   #40
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Sounds to me like this individual was either too stupid to know not to act like this on a plane or else there was more going on behind the scenes, as his father alluded to. Likely more of the latter, in which case I question why this individual was flying on an international flight to Panama in the first place:

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Shahi also said his son, who was escorted off the plane by a tactical team of police officers, “has never been violent but he is never happy. If he says something, he never means it, he can’t help himself.”
How was anyone else supposed to know this?

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He basically just tore a strip off her, explaining how expensive the cigarettes are here in Canada, he hates Canada," Bathe said. "Then he said, with great expression using his hands, 'I just want to bomb Canada".
Like it or not, in this day and age stuff like this is going to generate the kind of response we saw with this flight. Hard to kind of sit down and talk it out and try to get in the mind of someone like this when you're 30 000 ft in the air in a confined space with 200 other people.

Also find it amusing the father is quick to lay blame everywhere else but at his or his son's feet.

As for the police response - hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Easy to call it an overreaction after the fact.
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