American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nah, you didn't answer the question because you know the answer would be contradictory to how you're framing the timeframe here. Which is fine, just don't bull#### me with some "I answered your question" nonsense when the question was if you personally would be ok with being detained for weeks at a time by the police without a charge and your answer was "I'm not aware of a time limit!" and "That analogy doesn't make sense to me." You said things, you didn't answer the question. It was not a hard question. It was a leading question, one that was going to lead you to feel contradictory, so I get it, just don't act like I'm stupid and I don't see you.

No, your question does not lead to a contradictory response (due, in part, to the application of the protections given by 4th, 5th, and potentially 6th amendments, the border search exception, and due process rights afforded to migrants/asylum seekers). It is just a bad question that is conflating two areas of the law, presumably in an attempt to create some kind of “gotcha” response.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It is funny though. Here's your response to the suggestion of speeding up the process so kids aren't left in the detention facility for weeks on end:

It was a response to what I thought your proposed solution might be, based on your comments, although you still don’t seem to have explicitly stated what your proposed solution is. Maybe you don’t have one and prefer to just point out the obvious and throw rocks?

As for the rest of your reply, I honestly don’t know what to say other than to say that I think that you have gone off the rails. Have a good night.

[PepsiFree]

Three paragraphs over the course of three posts explaining why you won’t answer a nothing question that can be answered in a word, all while defending something not even the Biden administration running it is defending. Shine on you beautiful diamond. Thanks for the fun at least.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This truly is bizarre.

Like even if we all agreed that it's a terrible situation without good alternatives, which is fine, the amount of hoops people are jumping through is nuts.

It can't just be "there are no good alternatives" or "they're trying their best." It's gotta be:
- They aren't technically cages
- They aren't actually that bad
- It's your fault for believing politicians
- The policies that were human rights abuses are actually effective
- It's a lot worse everywhere else
- It's actually too hard to fix
- You shouldn't complain unless you can solve this

Like holy #### that's a lot of bending over backwards just to avoid saying a situation with repeated human rights abuses is... bad? Like it's better than dying and it's better than being on the street (and eventually dying) so that means it can't also be bad and worthy of criticism?

Craziness!

It's not a human right abuse, you don't have a right to enter the US, now all and everyone of them I suppose can ask to be sent back to Mexico right away, they can leave the detention center anytime they want to leave the US but not a single one of them has the right to come to the US.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

well the answer is simple, they arent being held in cages, they are being held in large facilities that use wire fencing to seperate the under tens or 12's from the teenage boys, who are seperated from the teen girls who also have to be seperated from the adult men who have to be seperated from adult women, they no doubt also have an area for suspected bad guys and another for families, they use wire fencing as it makes supervision easier and safer, its the same system that they used before Trump, the difference is they didnt seperate families pre Trump and the Trump admin did its best to pack those facilities and make the whole system grim, but other than that there really isnt any difference to what Clinton Bush Obama did, nor is it different to what Canada and the EU do, its just done at a vastly larger scale than us

No, this is highly inaccurate.

Under Biden, children are NOT being kept in border patrol detention centers, AKA cages, for long periods of time.

The difference that Biden is making is that the kids are now being transferred to the HHS as fast as the HHS can come up with facilities, and as fast as the kids can be processed.

So while there are thousands of kids in those detention centers at any one time, they're now being moved through them as fast as the system can manage.

The number of kids coming in has proved to be a serious logistical challenge, so the HHS facilities aren't that great either. But they're better than cages.

It's simply not true that the Biden administration hasn't been trying to make things significantly better at the border and yes they did start at day 1 exactly as promised.

It just doesn't make the kids magically disappear into thin air, which seems to be the demand.

So yeah, I do think its absolutely fair to ask, what isn't the Biden administration doing that you think they should be doing?

https://www.propublica.org/article/n...ded-facilities

[Itse]

You can calculate that if there's 600 kids coming in every day, and there's 4500 children in the detention centers, then the average kid now spends 7-8 days in a border patrol detention center.

Now, 7-8 days is longer than 72 hours which is the goal, but it's a lot less than several weeks which was the situation under Trump.

You can also calculate that if the number of kids coming in is up but the number of kids in the detention centers is down, then the average time spent in the detention centers IS getting shorter. If the number of kids in the detention centers is going down, that also means they are becoming less crowded.

Isn't this basically what the people wanted and what they were promised? That kids shouldn't spend weeks in overcrowded prison-like facilities?

This is what that looks like.

What exactly do you feel was promised that hasn't been delivered?

[CliffFletcher]

What do do about global migration and refugees is hardly a new problem, and the U.S. is hardly the only country grappling with it. There are more people trying to get into Western countries outside of regular immigration channels than those countries can readily process and absorb. And something has to be done with the arrivals while their applications are being processed to prevent them from just entering undocumented.

Because a country that can’t control its own borders and citizenship rapidly loses legitimacy in the eyes of the public. The Syrian refugee crisis shook European political culture to its foundation, fuelling populist movements across the continent. These are very high stakes we’re talking about. It’s the last issue where governments should be making policy based on knee-jerk outrage around terms like “children in cages.”

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What do do about global migration and refugees is hardly a new problem, and the U.S. is hardly the only country grappling with it. There are more people trying to get into Western countries outside of regular immigration channels than those countries can readily process and absorb. And something has to be done with the arrivals while their applications are being processed to prevent them from just entering undocumented.

Because a country that can’t control its own borders and citizenship rapidly loses legitimacy in the eyes of the public. The Syrian refugee crisis shook European political culture to its foundation, fuelling populist movements across the continent. These are very high stakes we’re talking about. It’s the last issue where governments should be making policy based on knee-jerk outrage around terms like “children in cages.”

First of all. They are literal kids in literal cages. It's not some "term" anybody is throwing around in "knee-jerk outrage". We seem to have gotten hung up on this point. Rational people can see kids being held in cages and are concerned about that probably not being the best environment for a young person. Can we do better? I hope so, but I don't know how.

Non-rational people are just flapping around squawking that cages aren't cages. WTF

I have no second of all.

[CliffFletcher]

It’s accurate in the same sense that returning Canadians forced to quarantine in hotels are “being imprisoned by their own government.” Technically correct. But clearly a pejorative term meant to stoke outrage. And in both cases employed to criticize measures that there are no practical alternatives to.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It's not a human right abuse, you don't have a right to enter the US, now all and everyone of them I suppose can ask to be sent back to Mexico right away, they can leave the detention center anytime they want to leave the US but not a single one of them has the right to come to the US.

The human rights abuses are occurring in the facilities, not for the fact that they aren't allowed to enter the US.

As for the second point:

What's False
Migrants in detention facilities are in the custody of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and attempting to leave a facility without authorization is a criminal offense. The option of "voluntary departure" is blocked off to many by significant legal and financial barriers, and the entire process is subject to the authority and discretion of immigration officials and courts. Migrants cannot simply "leave at any time."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/im...ave-detention/

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s accurate in the same sense that returning Canadians forced to quarantine in hotels are “being imprisoned by their own government.” Technically correct. But clearly a pejorative term meant to stoke outrage. And in both cases employed to criticize measures that there are no practical alternatives to.

There are two components, though.

Are returning Canadians kind of being imprisoned? Yes.

Are refugees on America's southern border being imprisoned? Yes.

Are returning Canadians being put in cages? No. They're in hotel rooms. Places people stay at while on vacation.

Are refugees on America's southern border being put in cages? Yes. They are literally imprisoned in cages with impervious metal fencing surrounding them on all sides. Cages.

There are "no practical alternatives" to housing kids in cages? That may be true, but there could be better alternatives and I think people critical of putting kids in cages are uncomfortable with accepting the status quo down there. If you're going to view those kids as human beings no different from your own children with the same feelings and fears your kids would have then I think it'd be irresponsible to not be critical of the situation.

The cold truth could be that putting them in cages is the best deterrent the States has to limit refugees coming over the border. I'm only here to point out what a cage is. And that kids are in them. Can't believe we can't agree on that because I can agree it could be the best alternative, which I think concedes a point to you.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What do do about global migration and refugees is hardly a new problem, and the U.S. is hardly the only country grappling with it. There are more people trying to get into Western countries outside of regular immigration channels than those countries can readily process and absorb. And something has to be done with the arrivals while their applications are being processed to prevent them from just entering undocumented.

While true, what I do have issue with is lumping in genuine asylum seekers with just everyone who wants to move to the West.

The amount of actual asylum seekers isn't really untenable, it's just considered undesirable.

The Syrian refugee crisis shook European political culture to its foundation, fuelling populist movements across the continent. These are very high stakes we’re talking about. It’s the last issue where governments should be making policy based on knee-jerk outrage around terms like “children in cages.”

While true, let's remember that the "Syrian refugee crisis" was basically a far right populist scam for the most part, because there just weren't enough Syrians to cause an actual crisis. It was just politically convenient to make a fuss about it, and xenophobia was already conveniently on the rise.

There's about 3.5M Syrian war related refugees in Turkish refugee camps, which sounds like a lot of people until you consider the size of Europe, which is 750M (depending on where you draw the line). We could easily have handled all those people. (Although not all of them are looking to move to Europe.)

In comparison, Jordan is currently housing 1.4M refugees, 90% of them in cities (so not in camps.) Jordan has a population of about 10M.

If Jordan can handle a refugee population that's more than 10% of it's population, Europe could handle a refugee population of less than half of one percent.

Most of the Syrian refugees would also likely go back to Syria once the war is over, which is typical for war refugees.

[Ozy_Flame]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1387437955346796550

[GirlySports]

... er

But HUNTER BIDEN!!!!!

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

First of all. They are literal kids in literal cages. It's not some "term" anybody is throwing around in "knee-jerk outrage". We seem to have gotten hung up on this point. Rational people can see kids being held in cages and are concerned about that probably not being the best environment for a young person. Can we do better? I hope so, but I don't know how.

Non-rational people are just flapping around squawking that cages aren't cages. WTF

I have no second of all.

Literally, a cage is "a barred cell for confining prisoners." [merriam-webster] Figuratively, a cage could mean any kind of prison.

[activeStick]

Rudy Giuliani's NYC apartment was raided by the FBI and his electronic devices were confiscated.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1387451274631778305

[troutman]

What does it tell us? A Message To You Rudy!

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by troutman

What does it tell us? A Message To You Rudy!

Nice!
That's a deep cut of a reference right there.
Now is it the original, or is it the Propagandhi version? Either work.

[Zevo]

Rudy's on a train to nowhere, halfway down the line...

[CliffFletcher]

Rudy can’t fail

[wireframe]

Destination Unknown. Rudy Rudy Rudy Rudy Soho.

Am I doing it right?