Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Muta]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Getting our crude to markets is an important issue and one that has surfaced due to a lack of investment and planning for a long time. Even Notley knew of this importance as she signed an almost $4B crude by rail deal

So that justifies the UCP's $1.4 billion gamble on a pipeline that even a drunk orangutan knew wasn't going to get built? Infrastructure investment / moving crude is a good thing, but giving away $1.4 billion in what basically came down to glorified virtue signaling is a colossal mistake that should never have happened.

[Ozy_Flame]

Here's your choices in Canadian politics:

Progressives: spend money on services.

Conservatives: give it away or don't bother collecting it.

I know which one I'm picking for a first world democracy.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Always remember the time-old adage: it’s worse to call-out somebody being wrong than it is to be wrong.

Not worse. Just pointless. It’s not as though it changes anyone’s mind on a forum like this.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Moneyguy as others have already said and pointed out but this needs to be called out for a serious misrepresentation at this point. You follow this thread actively. To suggest that the NDP blow through cash like a drunken sailer while not holding the UCP to the same degree, especially in the light of the last 4/5 years, is disingenuous at best.

I agree. Didn’t state my complete rationale for my vote but I agree both waste money. As I said, neither represents my values. (Same federally, by the way.)

[timun]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What wasteful spending did the NDP do, and how is it worse and noteworthy to point out vs the UCP's wasteful spending? Why is it only non-Conservative parties that get singled out for "wasteful" spending?

Originally Posted by Muta

It's not just the left that are 'spendthrift'. The UCP gave away $1.4 billion of our province's money on a pipeline to nowhere - the single greatest financial disaster this province has ever seen. If anything conservatives and the UCP are worse in that department than the 'left-wing' party.

Originally Posted by surferguy

Moneyguy as others have already said and pointed out but this needs to be called out for a serious misrepresentation at this point. You follow this thread actively. To suggest that the NDP blow through cash like a drunken sailer while not holding the UCP to the same degree, especially in the light of the last 4/5 years, is disingenuous at best.

Quoting myself, from about a year ago:

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not worse. Just pointless. It’s not as though it changes anyone’s mind on a forum like this.

I agree, it doesn't move the needle. I think that there is a tactic with this particular government that can effectively change people's minds, and it's of their own making.

The UCP have negatively touched on so many aspects of Albertans everyday life. There is nary a stone unturned. And like all libertarians, their goal is to enrich themselves and their friends. Every single voter in Alberta has something that they hold dear, at a political level. I guarantee you that the UCP has done something horrible to that dear thing. It's just up to fellow Albertans to shine a light on what has happened, and create a former-UCP supporter.

In my particular world, this issue has been the mining on the Eastern Slopes. This is a direct attack on ranchers, farmers and the entire agricultural sector. It also effects the water basin for the southern half of the province, including Lethbridge. Once a rancher learns that Grassy Mountain is being actively pushed forward by the UCP, that the province is likely to land in debt because of it (after cleanup is left to the people, and the Aussies run back across the ocean), that the value of their livestock with plummet (as it has for the ranchers in Washington state, due to the Teck mine), that the crops with be effected through drought, that drinking water will contain selenium at a dangerous level.... and on, and on. The effect is realization that this government, is not working for them. That they were lied to.

Rural people take that #### personally.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by timun

Quoting myself, from about a year ago:

Is it somehow surprising to you, because of the increased font and holding, that the COVID years has a larger than normal deficit because of increased public supports and decreased taxes due to people working less and businesses generating less revenue?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Is it somehow surprising to you, because of the increased font and holding, that the COVID years has a larger than normal deficit because of increased public supports and decreased taxes due to people working less and businesses generating less revenue?

If I was going to increase the font of some numbers it would be the increase in non-renewable energy's revenue contribution. From approx 5 to 28 is insane.
Everything else is just a couple percentage points either way.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Is it somehow surprising to you, because of the increased font and holding, that the COVID years has a larger than normal deficit because of increased public supports and decreased taxes due to people working less and businesses generating less revenue?

The UCP budgeted for a$6.8B deficit before any Covid measure came about, which was more than the previous NDP budget in the 2018-19 fiscal year.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Torture

If I was going to increase the font of some numbers it would be the increase in non-renewable energy's revenue contribution. From approx 5 to 28 is insane.
Everything else is just a couple percentage points either way.

Ha, I only see calgarygeologist's post because you quoted it. The context of the original post I copied the table from was Slava's whinging about the NDP unforgivable, 'cardinal' sin: having the operations budget exceed revenue. The point I was originally making with it was that in fiscal year 2019-20—pre-Covid—the UCP government ran the biggest deficit budget we've ever had. And still, Slava said he thought the UCP ought to be forgiven...

But you're right, I think an overarching point is that non-renewable resource revenue dropped like a rock during the NDP's tenure, and roared back up a couple years ago because oil prices jumped as economic activity resumed as the world moved out of the Covid pandemic, and because Russia invaded Ukraine. The UCP government have spent far, far more than the NDP ever did. When Conservative governments are gifted revenues through no action on their part, laissez-faire becomes laissez les bons temps rouler!

[Locke]

Hm. I genuinely dislike participating in this thread, for a veritable cornucopia of reasons.

But I really think we as a Society, as Albertans, need an opportunity to hit the 'Reset button.'

I think certain beliefs and values have slid across the scale in unintended ways and because it happened over a period of time perhaps that slide has gone unnoticed?

By some?

When I hear people identify Nenshi as a 'Pinko Communist' I immediately understand that there is a problem here.

The thing is, I'd consider him someone about as 'Dead-Ass-Centre' as it gets. Maybe a little leaning left. But theres nothing wrong with that.

Because the line has become broken.

That is over. If anyone believes in the Political line? That is over.

Its like a fat man with a belt. They just keep adding holes and saying 'nothing has changed.'

Sorry bud. It has.

I think for the most part people need to understand Socialism. That is...choosing a group that performs a service for a fee, but not devised by overall profit rather than for the benefit of the community.

They need to be compensated for their work because we don't live in Star Trek but you get the general idea.

I just dont hold to the notion that the Government should be in charge of nothing. I do not believe they should be in charge of everything, but basic functional services? Of course!

There are basic things the community should provide to the community. Health Care, Education, Policing and infrastructure, etc.

That's Socialism. Whats wrong with that? Its a communal pooling of funds and determination of responsibility to accomplish a goal that will benefit everyone.

That doesnt mean you can't have Capitalism. There is no immutable law that states that both things cannot exist in the same space at the same time.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I hate that my only reasonable choices are a corrupt government beholden to wealthy benefactors and a spendthrift left-wing party. Neither represents me but it’s NDP by default.

$14,000 a bottle acetaminophen (sole sourced?) kind of disproves that spendthrift characterization.

[Reggie Dunlop]

No government has wasted WASTED more money than the UCP. None.

[D as in David]

The UCP is only fiscally conservative by reputation/perception but that's enough to maintain their hold over many voters in this province.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

No government has wasted WASTED more money than the UCP. None.

Well thats a...thats a tall statement.

But some of them are probably better at hiding it.

[btimbit]

I've said it before, but let's just pretend both parties spend equally. They don't, UCP spends more, but let's pretend for the sake of argument.

I'd rather the one where I at least get some benefit from it myself, rather than just benefiting corporations and the wealthy

[Locke]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I've said it before, but let's just pretend both parties spend equally. They don't, UCP spends more, but let's pretend for the sake of argument.

I'd rather the one where I at least get some benefit from it myself, rather than just benefiting corporations and the wealthy

Completely agree. If you want to piss money away, do it for the benefit of people.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I've said it before, but let's just pretend both parties spend equally. They don't, UCP spends more, but let's pretend for the sake of argument.

I'd rather the one where I at least get some benefit from it myself, rather than just benefiting corporations and the wealthy

Are there any legitimate economists who still believe in trickle-down economics?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Are there any legitimate economists who still believe in trickle-down economics?

I dont know...whats that LEGO ripoff with gigantic blocks?

I get why people believe in 'Trickle Down Economics' or 'Reaganomics' or whatever you want to call it.

I see it. I see the presumed natural progression and I see the idea. Cool.

But it doesnt work. I get where they were trying to go but there are so many flaws here it is laughable.

The thing about Economics is that it entails a great number of moving pieces and it can be incredibly complex.

Sometimes lowering Corporate Tax rates is a good idea. But that depends a whole lot on a dozen other circumstances.

This is why I've said that Accountants should be elected as World Leaders.

"Oh yeah, giving Corporate Tax reductions is going to create jobs!!"

It might or it might not. The thing about economics and taxes is that if you pull one lever, several other elements change. Thats the fascination.

People who think..."If I do thing A, then my desired result of Thing B will happen!"

Those people are idiots.

Its the same thing with PST. I know lots of people here are huge proponents of PST and I'm not entirely against it either but seriously.

"If we put up a PST we'll get 'X' number of dollars and solve all our problems!"

Oh really? You think nobody's spending decisions are going to change at all?

People think: "Add a tax and everything else will stay the same! So same spending +5% and we're laughing!"

[Slava]

Originally Posted by timun

Ha, I only see calgarygeologist's post because you quoted it. The context of the original post I copied the table from was Slava's whinging about the NDP unforgivable, 'cardinal' sin: having the operations budget exceed revenue. The point I was originally making with it was that in fiscal year 2019-20—pre-Covid—the UCP government ran the biggest deficit budget we've ever had. And still, Slava said he thought the UCP ought to be forgiven...

But you're right, I think an overarching point is that non-renewable resource revenue dropped like a rock during the NDP's tenure, and roared back up a couple years ago because oil prices jumped as economic activity resumed as the world moved out of the Covid pandemic, and because Russia invaded Ukraine. The UCP government have spent far, far more than the NDP ever did. When Conservative governments are gifted revenues through no action on their part, laissez-faire becomes laissez les bons temps rouler!

A) It is a cardinal sin.

B) I never once said the UCP should be forgiven.

C) Can’t you control yourself to not comment about me? I’m most interested in engaging with you in any context.