[PGT] Flames dominate, but lose 2-1 to the Sharks in OT.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

How? Do you not expect Ferland to be a better player than Colborne when he's 26/27?

And that last comment added absolutely nothing to the discussion, although neither did my reply so I shouldn't throw stones.

Someone posted about Colborne's points as a 23 year old. I posted what they actually were. Simply replying to a post.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Southside

That doesn't surprise me. The Flames are in the bottom third of the league in hits, Ferland ranks in the mid 20's in the league. Ferland averages 3 hits per game, the leaders average 4. But, there is more to it than that. Watch those hit leaders play, they get that extra hit, get into those extra scrums, dole out some face washes, cross checks in the crease and just generally get under the opponents skin.

Wait a sec. Lemme get this straight. Are you suggesting Ferland would be a much more impactful player if he averaged 1 more hit per game and 2 more face washes per game? That's silly thinking to me.

Ferland is Ferland. Matt Martin is Matt Martin. Cal Clutterbuck is Cal Clutterbuck. Ferland is his own player. He's clearly not an agitator so if you're expecting that you're expectations are out of whack. Hathaway is more like Matt Martin, is more of an agitator. You want a guy running around and hitting everything in sight? That should be what Josh Jooris, Hathaway and Bouma are doing. Ferland has better hands and offensive instincts than those guys. The Flames have identified that and are trying to develop him into a power forward who can be a complimentary piece on a line with two more skilled players. You want a guy who fights and threatens people? That's more what Bollig and Engelland are here for. I, like some of the other posters think that Ferland has been asked to tone down on fighting because of concussion worries.

Clearly certain people have no patience or don't see that upside in Ferland. W/E. Obviously management and coaches do see that upside and have more patience than your average fan. It will be interesting to watch Ferland down the stretch. He should get some nice opportunities down the stretch with Jones and Hudler gone.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

How many days old was Colborne vs. Ferland? That's the most important part of the discussion.

Ferland was 23 years and about 5 and a half months old at the start of this season. He had 5 points in 26 NHL regular season games, and another 5 points in 9 playoff games prior to the start of this season.

When Colborne joined the Flames in 2013-14, he was 23 years and about 8 months old. He had 6 points in 16 NHL regular season games, and 0 points in 2 playoff games prior to the start of that season.


In his first full NHL season, Colborne had 28 points in 80 games, with an average of 14:16 of ice time per game. In Ferland's first full NHL season, he has 12 points in 55 games, so far, with an average of 12:26 of ice time per game.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by getbak

Ferland was 23 years and about 5 and a half months old at the start of this season. He had 5 points in 26 NHL regular season games, and another 5 points in 9 playoff games prior to the start of this season.

When Colborne joined the Flames in 2013-14, he was 23 years and about 8 months old. He had 6 points in 16 NHL regular season games, and 0 points in 2 playoff games prior to the start of that season.


In his first full NHL season, Colborne had 28 points in 80 games, with an average of 14:16 of ice time per game. In Ferland's first full NHL season, he has 12 points in 55 games, so far, with an average of 12:26 of ice time per game.

Out of thanks, so thanks.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

A plateau or drop-off is a huge red-flag of the guy becoming anything more than a 3rd/4th line guy. Particularly when the player is 23 years old.

And here is the crux of the disagreement, who are you to say he's hit a plateau? He's in his rookie year, he's 23 years old and he started hockey very late. It would be foolish to think he's peaked in his first year in the league. I don't see a plateau at all. I see a young player slowly improving. Why don't you see that? I don't know. I speculated it was because you're not watching him closely because I think anybody who does watch him closely should see the mostly good things he's doing on a shift by shift basis.

Since when do rookies plateau in their first year in the league? This must be a new thing because in my 20 years of watching hockey I find most players aren't even close to what they will become in their first full year in the league.

I think you can probably go back and find people like yourself who thought Brodie had hit a plateau in his first year in the league and could never become a top two defenseman. It would be silly for them to think that but you know, people think silly things sometimes. Like that a 23 year old player has stopped improving and can never be more than what he is right now.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Even guys like Brodie, Gaudreau and Giordano who were late picks/undrafted guys were always looking good from the second they were drafted.

A plateau or drop-off is a huge red-flag of the guy becoming anything more than a 3rd/4th line guy. Particularly when the player is 23 years old.

Guess where Giordano was at age 23/24? Russia. Guess how many people thought that was a red flag and wrote him off? A lot. Guess how many were wrong? A lot.

Ferland is 23. Giordano hadn't even established himself as a regular NHL defensemen by that age.

23 is young unless you're a top 5-10 pick. It's especially young if you started hockey late. He's a young player still developing, that's reality. Plateau? Gimme a break.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ No problem with your opinion.

I would object to the insinuation that people who find flaws with his game, effort and effectiveness don't watch him closely though

They may just interpret what they see from him in a much different light than you, with all due respect.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

In all honesty this boils down to the same conversation about prospects that always happens here. There's the optimistic group (Enoch/FDW and probably others) and then the pessimistic group.

Can there not simply be a "each individual case should be treated individually" group that sees that Ferland possesses NHL skills that other, more productive players do not even possess?

On the whole though - the pessimists are right more often than not when it comes to prospects.

No, they aren't. They're just co-incidentally closer to the general overarching percentages. Which, again, fail to treat individual cases as individual cases.

A plateau or drop-off is a huge red-flag of the guy becoming anything more than a 3rd/4th line guy. Particularly when the player is 23 years old.

Who plateaued, and when? The guy who sprained his ACL this season and then later had a concussion? Or the guy who's about to play his 82nd career NHL game tonight, having put in a pretty respectable 6-12-17 stat line in those 81 games almost entirely in a checking role?

I believe Ferland has more upside. Maybe he tops out as a 35 point forward which isn't exactly a first line guy, but that'd be an upward progression from where he's at right now. With his general skillset that means he'd be a very useful player.

I will finish this post by stating this:

Martin St. Louis had 4G 16A in 69 games as a Flame. Same age as Ferland. We don't need Ferland to become MSL for him to have not plateaued.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I hope Ferly plays with the passion of his fans tonight

[Southside]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Wait a sec. Lemme get this straight. Are you suggesting Ferland would be a much more impactful player if he averaged 1 more hit per game and 2 more face washes per game? That's silly thinking to me.

Ferland is Ferland. Matt Martin is Matt Martin. Cal Clutterbuck is Cal Clutterbuck. Ferland is his own player. He's clearly not an agitator so if you're expecting that you're expectations are out of whack. Hathaway is more like Matt Martin, is more of an agitator. You want a guy running around and hitting everything in sight? That should be what Josh Jooris, Hathaway and Bouma are doing. Ferland has better hands and offensive instincts than those guys. The Flames have identified that and are trying to develop him into a power forward who can be a complimentary piece on a line with two more skilled players. You want a guy who fights and threatens people? That's more what Bollig and Engelland are here for. I, like some of the other posters think that Ferland has been asked to tone down on fighting because of concussion worries.

Clearly certain people have no patience or don't see that upside in Ferland. W/E. Obviously management and coaches do see that upside and have more patience than your average fan. It will be interesting to watch Ferland down the stretch. He should get some nice opportunities down the stretch with Jones and Hudler gone.

Yes, a more engaged Ferland is a better Ferland. He needs to be hitting guys and mucking it up in the crease and corners. If he wants a career in the NHL, that is where he will earn it. Let's not forget the guy was basically an unknown quantity until Round 1 last year. What happened there? I guess where we differ is that you think he has top 6 potential where as I do not. If he can chip in the odd goal while being an aggressive sob, I'm happy. Frankly, you are expecting too much of him. Lucic he is not.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Guess where Giordano was at age 23/24? Russia. Guess how many people thought that was a red flag and wrote him off? A lot. Guess how many were wrong? A lot.

Ferland is 23. Giordano hadn't even established himself as a regular NHL defensemen by that age.

23 is young unless you're a top 5-10 pick. It's especially young if you started hockey late. He's a young player still developing, that's reality. Plateau? Gimme a break.

Great post. A lot of players especially late round picks take longer to develop.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Guess where Giordano was at age 23/24? Russia. Guess how many people thought that was a red flag and wrote him off? A lot. Guess how many were wrong? A lot.

Ferland is 23. Giordano hadn't even established himself as a regular NHL defensemen by that age.

23 is young unless you're a top 5-10 pick. It's especially young if you started hockey late. He's a young player still developing, that's reality. Plateau? Gimme a break.

Giordano left because he wanted a one way contract. I can't speak for everyone but a lot of people thought it was a mistake by Sutter to not give him one.

It was not because he was declining or plateauing.