Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[Fuzz]

Alberta contributes more than it's share to confederation through our industry, only to have other provinces block our attempts at continuing to provide that assistance. It's short sited for Quebec to block something that is helping them. They should be offering all they can.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

So what? If Alberta was a separate country we would still receive this benefit (just like we benefit from having doctors and engineers educated in Iran and Nigeria) without the cost. It's a false "benefit" of federation. Those people would still come here for economic reasons.
Separatism is the answer my friends. The sooner we wake up to that the better.

I didn't think you were being sarcastic until I saw the wink at the end. Sarcastic?

So what?

Being a Province of Canada allows all these people to have come to Calgary without ANY restrictions. No wait times, no approvals, no "sorry, your MD doesn't apply here". The free flow of people is drastically easier over provincial borders than internationally and if you're too ignorant to even consider what I said as being even remotely worth noting there's no point having a discussion.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Honest question, is high school now "highly educated"? Or do provinces subsidize university tuition a lot? I know federal money covers a great deal of tuition, but I don't know how much the provinces, especially the have not provinces spend in comparison. I assume Alberta has paid for a lot of that education.

Oil took a dive today after the Saudi OPEC minister spoke. Interesting comments on how they are not trying to protect their market share but rather just trying to keep customers happy. However they are going to meet in March to talk about possibly thinking about lowering production.

No, high school would not be considered highly educated but grade school is about 13 steps prior to being highly educated.

These teachers that educated all these kids through school are likely provincially funded teachers. They went to schools that were funded by provincial school systems (I'm not sure on how much federally and provincially) paid for by the taxes generated in that province. To pretend it's as simple as "dey tuuk rrrr munee" is obtuse.

Yes, we're getting a raw deal IMO. There's leaders out there that are happy with the money coming in while standing on their high horses and complaining about oil and pipelines. But simply looking at money out and pretending that's the ONLY side of the equation is wrong.

It doesn't mean the argument for better treatment of Alberta or fair consideration of pipelines is also wrong. We deserve to be treated better, simple as that.

[Tinordi]

What if Ontario 100 years ago said that all tax remittances by Ontarians have to be cycled back to Ontario?

How would that have impacted the development of Canada and its hinterlands? How would that have impacted the economic structure and social systems we enjoy today?

Or is there no dividend to maintaining a broadly equitable level of services across the federation? Some here think so.

I don't think the answer is that simple. In either case, we aren't discussing this like the policy issue that it is. We're discussing it to feel superior and project blame for our situation on well-worn tropes and myths that are mostly irrelevant.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Or is there no dividend to maintaining a broadly equitable level of services across the federation? Some here think so.

I don't think the answer is that simple. In either case, we aren't discussing this like the policy issue that it is. We're discussing it to feel superior and project blame for our situation on well-worn tropes and myths that are mostly irrelevant.

So if one agrees that Canadians should broadly look after each other's best interest, why does a significant portion of the country continually blockade the efforts of our country's most productive industry to create more wealth for all Canadians?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

I didn't think you were being sarcastic until I saw the wink at the end. Sarcastic?

So what?

Being a Province of Canada allows all these people to have come to Calgary without ANY restrictions. No wait times, no approvals, no "sorry, your MD doesn't apply here". The free flow of people is drastically easier over provincial borders than internationally and if you're too ignorant to even consider what I said as being even remotely worth noting there's no point having a discussion.

Why would their B.Engs. or MDs not be recognized here if Alberta separated or why would they not be able to cross the borders? That is a policy choice for the Alberta government, not related to the independence issue. The fact that Iranian engineers are or are not recognized here is a government policy, not an automatic product of Canadian independence. All I am saying is that all these people would still be able to come here regardless of whether we were part of the federation.
Thus to say that this is a benefit of being in Canada is somewhat artificial, as I would argue we would still be able to have this even as a separate country.
Plus, as PQ has helpfully demonstrated, the trick is not to actually separate but to demonstrate a credible enough threat to get a "good" deal...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

So if one agrees that Canadians should broadly look after each other's best interest, why does a significant portion of the country continually blockade the efforts of our country's most productive industry to create more wealth for all Canadians?

Poor job convincing them it's worth it?

[Kavvy]

Even if you don't believe in confederation, believe that the moment AB separates, the last pipeline through BC or eastern Canada would have been approved.

Does limiting future AB investment to essentially 0 in the oil and gas sector account for all the savings we would gain from not giving transfer payments? I have no idea, but I believe in the Nation of Canada.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Poor job convincing them it's worth it?

No argument on that one.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What if Ontario 100 years ago said that all tax remittances by Ontarians have to be cycled back to Ontario?

That's how it mostly was, as governments were much smaller back and income tax only started due to WW1. Prior to that, federal revenues consisted mainly of tariffs on imports.

It's even argued that the policies then favored the development of the economies of Ontario/Quebec vs the agricultural and commodities economies of the rest of Canada because the high tariff meant that Canadians had to buy mostly Canadian made goods and the lack of free trade made selling commodities to other countries harder.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

Even if you don't believe in confederation, believe that the moment AB separates, the last pipeline through BC or eastern Canada would have been approved.

Does limiting future AB investment to essentially 0 in the oil and gas sector account for all the savings we would gain from not giving transfer payments? I have no idea, but I believe in the Nation of Canada.

As an immigrant, I feel no ties to "Canada" whatsover. Canada is Quebec and Ontario, plus appendages in my view. I do feel a lot of passion/attachment to Calgary and Alberta.
As an outsider, Canada seems like a swindle on the outlying, particularly Western, provinces - we will take your money but will give you no power. Seems like a great deal - in the same sense as when decisions about India were made in London...

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Poor job convincing them it's worth it?

Fair enough, I think thats why some people are suggesting the option of turning the tap off.

Usually that does a fine job of convincing people.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

As an immigrant, I feel no ties to "Canada" whatsover. Canada is Quebec and Ontario, plus appendages in my view. I do feel a lot of passion/attachment to Calgary and Alberta.
As an outsider, Canada seems like a swindle on the outlying, particularly Western, provinces - we will take your money but will give you no power. Seems like a great deal - in the same sense as when decisions about India were made in London...

Awesome, but you ignore the main point of my post.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

Awesome, but you ignore the main point of my post.

About the oil access? Exactly the same as now? Again, the trick is to build a credible threat of separation, not actual separation - that's how you get what you want.

[CliffFletcher]

As a born and bred Canadian, I'd rank my allegiances:

Canada
Calgary
Alberta

For much of Canada's history, Central Canada was the economic engine of the country. Believe it or not, there was a time when manufacturing things was the key to prosperity in this world. Without the ballast of Central Canada, in population, industry, and culture, those outlying parts of Canada would have been swallowed up by the U.S. long ago. A million farmers and loggers do not make for a viable sovereign state.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Why would their B.Engs. or MDs not be recognized here if Alberta separated or why would they not be able to cross the borders? That is a policy choice for the Alberta government, not related to the independence issue. The fact that Iranian engineers are or are not recognized here is a government policy, not an automatic product of Canadian independence. All I am saying is that all these people would still be able to come here regardless of whether we were part of the federation.
Thus to say that this is a benefit of being in Canada is somewhat artificial, as I would argue we would still be able to have this even as a separate country.
Plus, as PQ has helpfully demonstrated, the trick is not to actually separate but to demonstrate a credible enough threat to get a "good" deal...

We're not playing in a world of hypothetical's.

We've received a great deal of benefit from being a part of Canada. Whether that be through easy flows of capital and migration, trading of goods and resources, ease of travel (I like to go to BC), I'm employed by a Ontario based entity, as I'm sure 100's of thousands are, ease of travel throughout the world on a Canadian passport. Yes Alberta may have transferred a great deal of wealth to other provinces and perhaps not at a fair share while being kicked when down. But to simply look at one side of the ledger is ignorant. So try a little harder.

"Separate country"

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Locke

Fair enough, I think thats why some people are suggesting the option of turning the tap off.

Usually that does a fine job of convincing people.

I've never had much luck getting my way by stomping my feet.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Again, the trick is to build a credible threat of separation, not actual separation - that's how you get what you want.

Calgary 2000 - Heart of the new West
Calgary 2015 - Be a part of the new Energy
Calgary 2016 - "Quebec 2.0".

Yeah, that's a legacy I want to be a part of.

"We wined like Quebec until we got what we wanted"

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I've never had much luck getting my way by stomping my feet.

That's basically what other provinces do. Perhaps that's how this country works.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by nik-

That's basically what other provinces do. Perhaps that's how this country works.

That's how EVERYTHING works.