Let's Talk about the Calgary Police Service

[wwkayaker]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

I just don't think it's a great look to assess things on what little knowledge or understanding you have.

Unless others discussing this issue are cops and know more, all of us are making assumptions based on restricted info. I don’t know more than what I saw in the video. If I had more info, I may change my opinion. From what I saw in the video, and opinions I’ve formed based on other recent police events of similar nature, I think there is room to improve policing in some areas.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

You use a lot of words that are suggestive and vague: unprovoked,

So you don't think getting hit by a less-lethal weapon is provoking? Lol.

Yeah cool a weapon was used as a weapon. And a person is dead because it was. But you still haven't explained why they couldn't have just waited until he was an actual threat, or at least on his feet, to escalate this to less-lethal force.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

There is a lot to unpack here as well.


Suicide hotlines do some wonderful work from a distance. A lot of counselling is currently done via phone or video. What does proximity have to do with effectiveness of therapy?

I’m arguing that the police didn’t do everything they could prior to using force. Do you know how long this event went on? Was there time to bring in a health professional? It looks like the situation could have remained lower risk for long enough to bring a health professional down. You say non communicative but do you know that for sure? Let’s say there was no communication and examine why. A dozen officers with guns interacting with a person in a diminished mental state doesn’t seem like an ideal setting for communication. And now I’m back to my point which is that a non-police presence may have been less threatening, more knowledgeable and more likely to deescalate the situation.

From what I see in the video, a stabbing wasn’t imminent and there was time employ other strategies.

Well, ####, maybe they should have done a teleconference with a psychiatrist. To that extent, yes, the police were negligent. You knew exactly what I meant when I talked about proximity and therapy.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

I’m arguing that the police didn’t do everything they could prior to using force. Do you know how long this event went on?

No I don't. Do you? The difference is that I am not suggesting alternate outcomes or judging based on that unknown.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

Was there time to bring in a health professional?

See above.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

It looks like the situation could have remained lower risk for long enough to bring a health professional down.

Based on what? He literally assaulted members of the public, was holding a knife and creeping behind a pole. Lower risk? WTF.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

You say non communicative but do you know that for sure?

Yes, the Chief of Police talks about that.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

Let’s say there was no communication and examine why. A dozen officers with guns interacting with a person in a diminished mental state doesn’t seem like an ideal setting for communication.

That's the nature of the incident. It's not ideal. The alternative is what? Put the guns away? Walk away?

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

And now I’m back to my point which is that a non-police presence may have been less threatening, more knowledgeable and more likely to deescalate the situation.

I guess that's the point I am trying to make. And the Chief of Police says this in his news conference. This is a police call. The public phones the police because of an assaultive male with a weapon. They expect the police to go and deal with it. What kind of non-police presence are you suggesting?

[jgotti]

Are you clueless. You have an armed man on a public street with the general public around. You going to wait it out for him to calm down with the potential of the public to be assaulted. He had already assaulted a innocent bystander. What would you say if innocent people got additional hurt and the police watched when it’s there Job for public safety.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by jgotti

Are you clueless. You have an armed man on a public street with the general public around.

Behind a bunch of officers who have their guns aimed at a man with his knees on the ground.

I thought it was unfair for the family to say the dog's life was worth more than his. But apparently this guy's life wasn't worth a couple more minutes of spinning around on the floor to most of you guys.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by jgotti

Are you clueless. You have an armed man on a public street with the general public around. You going to wait it out for him to calm down with the potential of the public to be assaulted. He had already assaulted a innocent bystander. What would you say if innocent people got additional hurt and the police watched when it’s there Job for public safety.

This is where mental health professionals would be valuable. Bring in people with specific training for dealing with these satiations. The police appear to have carried out their training.

But in general yes, you wait as long as necessary because you can always shoot him later before the public is threatened again.

These are sad situations which should be preventable. Figuring out how should be a priority.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So you don't think getting hit by a less-lethal weapon is provoking? Lol.

Yeah cool a weapon was used as a weapon. And a person is dead because it was. But you still haven't explained why they couldn't have just waited until he was an actual threat, or at least on his feet, to escalate this to less-lethal force.

Laugh all you want. It's designed to de-escalate though pain compliance. And it is VERY effective. In this case, it wasn't. Why? I have no idea. Maybe it missed. Maybe the the guy didn't even feel it.

The waiting question. I did explain it. Waiting is great. I mean i'd suggest if he had been sitting against the pole with his arms down, it would have been different. But he wasn't. He had ninja crawled behind the pole and I don't think he did that to give up.

So what you are suggesting is that his mere body position did not necessitate the use of the Arwen. But if he was standing, it's all ok? So YOU would wait that subtle body position change? Have you ever shot an Arwen? Do you know it's effective range or anything else about it? I mean what if the Arwen cop felt this was the best position to fire a round off. He had a large mass to hit, the guy was close to the ground and maybe less likely to fall, maybe positionally, he was in a good spot to deliver an effective shot. All this combined with all the checkboxes and I would suggest it would have been easy to make that decision.

You can be dismissive with my comments but I don't think it gets us any further ahead.

[jgotti]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Behind a bunch of officers who have their guns aimed at a man with his knees on the ground.

I thought it was unfair for the family to say the dog's life was worth more than his. But apparently this guy's life wasn't worth a couple more minutes of spinning around on the floor to most of you guys.

No you just don’t have any sense of reality nor experience in that situation. Enjoy your judgement of these officers from the comfort of your sofa and keyboard. Maybe apply to do the job or even next time you go out there and deescalte a man with a knife after he already assaulted someone with your verbal judo and waiting it out techniques.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Behind a bunch of officers who have their guns aimed at a man with his knees on the ground.

I thought it was unfair for the family to say the dog's life was worth more than his. But apparently this guy's life wasn't worth a couple more minutes of spinning around on the floor to most of you guys.

There are 4 sides to compass.

Dude, you need to step away from the Facebook or whatever else you are reading.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is where mental health professionals would be valuable. Bring in people with specific training for dealing with these satiations. The police appear to have carried out their training.

But in general yes, you wait as long as necessary because you can always shoot him later before the public is threatened again.

These are sad situations which should be preventable. Figuring out how should be a priority.

Agree with all of that in a general sense.

But it seems clear in this situation, regardless of the "triggering" by the Arwen as some have suggested, it did not appear, at least to me, that waiting him out was an option.

[wwkayaker]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Well, ####, maybe they should have done a teleconference with a psychiatrist. To that extent, yes, the police were negligent. You knew exactly what I meant when I talked about proximity and therapy.



No I don't. Do you? The difference is that I am not suggesting alternate outcomes or judging based on that unknown.



See above.



Based on what? He literally assaulted members of the public, was holding a knife and creeping behind a pole. Lower risk? WTF.




Yes, the Chief of Police talks about that.



That's the nature of the incident. It's not ideal. The alternative is what? Put the guns away? Walk away?




I guess that's the point I am trying to make. And the Chief of Police says this in his news conference. This is a police call. The public phones the police because of an assaultive male with a weapon. They expect the police to go and deal with it. What kind of non-police presence are you suggesting?

Well, that escalated quickly. I’m done and have offered my opinion and you don’t agree. Cool. I’m not alright with a man getting killed in a situation that appears as though it could have been handled differently.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

Well, that escalated quickly. I’m done and have offered my opinion and you don’t agree. Cool. I’m not alright with a man getting killed in a situation that appears as though it could have been handled differently.

And it's easy to have an opinion from in front of your computer, with zero knowledge or training or even a motivation to seek out information on what happened (at least that's how it appears to me).

I will agree it's always hard to see someone get shot and killed by police. And like you, I always try to look for alternative outcomes. But from what I have read and watched, this appears to be just an unavoidable tragedy for both the victim and the police officers involved.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Laugh all you want. It's designed to de-escalate though pain compliance. And it is VERY effective. In this case, it wasn't. Why? I have no idea. Maybe it missed. Maybe the the guy didn't even feel it.

I would guess that likely someone who has been a child soldier and suffers from PTSD is way more likely to be triggered in such a situation than de-escalated.

Pain may cause compliance, but that's not the same thing as de-escalation.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

I would guess that likely someone who has been a child soldier and suffers from PTSD is way more likely to be triggered in such a situation than de-escalated.

Pain may cause compliance, but that's not the same thing as de-escalation.

All that was unknown by police. Just trying to stick with what we know.

Compliance literally de-escalates.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

That's the nature of the incident. It's not ideal. The alternative is what? Put the guns away? Walk away?

Or just stand there and wait for him to make the move.

If he was spinning and then decided to get up onto his two feet and charge the officer on his own accord it's a tragedy but the officers would have no choice. Just as the officers who did shoot him with the firearms here did.

But the problem was it was escalated by shooting him with the arwen while he was not a threat when they could have just waited.

I can tell you the harm in shooting him with a less-lethal weapon. It could kill him, it happens. It could provoke him into charging, like it did. Which becomes not just a clear risk to him as we saw but now anyone caught in the crossfires and anyone he could have reached.

But where is the harm in just waiting? I don't get it. Every single de-escalation course being taught right now emphasizes time and space. Especially for a psychotic break or mental health crisis.

Like if the exact same situation was happening but you saw an officer walk up to the guy until he was in stabbing range and then shoot him, the response would be "why the #### did the officer actively reduce his own distance to force the issue?!" Right? Give me that at least.

But when an officer shoots at the guy to force the issue, removing time well that's fine? No, it's as dumb as the other guy.

Time and space. Best de-escalation tools.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

He had ninja crawled behind the pole and I don't think he did that to give up.

Buddy there's no pole.

Have you seen this video? https://www.tiktok.com/@jijaji1221/v...4jzOBZuaM&_r=1

The lamp posts are not between him and the police ever. He's doing his weird ninja stuff out in the open.

[BigNumbers]

Cops did the right thing. Sorry for the family’s loss, but sometimes hard decisions are made and we can’t expend unlimited resources on having mental health resources embedded in each squad car.

Life is tough and, at its root, about allocating scarce resources as efficiently and best as possible.

Hopefully we can take some learnings from this tragic end to a man’s life and continue to improve society.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Or just stand there and wait for him to make the move.



If he was spinning and then decided to get up onto his two feet and charge the officer on his own accord it's a tragedy but the officers would have no choice. Just as the officers who did shoot him with the firearms here did.



But the problem was it was escalated by shooting him with the arwen while he was not a threat when they could have just waited.



I can tell you the harm in shooting him with a less-lethal weapon. It could kill him, it happens. It could provoke him into charging, like it did. Which becomes not just a clear risk to him as we saw but now anyone caught in the crossfires and anyone he could have reached.



But where is the harm in just waiting? I don't get it. Every single de-escalation course being taught right now emphasizes time and space. Especially for a psychotic break or mental health crisis.



Like if the exact same situation was happening but you saw an officer walk up to the guy until he was in stabbing range and then shoot him, the response would be "why the #### did the officer actively reduce his own distance to force the issue?!" Right? Give me that at least.



But when an officer shoots at the guy to force the issue, removing time well that's fine? No, it's as dumb as the other guy.



Time and space. Best de-escalation tools.

Well clearly nothing I say will change what you think you know.

A really good exercise is to think about what you KNOW about the incident. Not what you think happened or what you think you saw or what you think the guy was thinking. Only what you observed or what was in a press release. And then think about what you DON'T know.

At the very least it may help you reserve judgement.

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[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

A really good exercise is to think about what you KNOW about the incident.

We know he was shot while he was crawling on the floor 30+ feet away from anyone. In doing so, obviously unintentional but obviously as a possibility, the officer provoked the man escalating the situation instead of simply following every single de-escalation training that supports time and distance. I don't see how you can disagree with this. It's video.

But you're bringing up him hiding behind a pole that is clearly not there. So I'm genuinely curious if we're talking about the same event.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Buddy there's no pole.

Have you seen this video? https://www.tiktok.com/@jijaji1221/v...4jzOBZuaM&_r=1

The lamp posts are not between him and the police ever. He's doing his weird ninja stuff out in the open.

Not your buddy.

But no. I haven't seen that one. The one I've seen is an angle from the northeast and it looks like he's behind the pole.

Your video is even worse. Clearly looks like he's ninja crawling up and it's certainly not to play a game of monopoly. Ya, wait that guy out. There's literally someone standing within 10 feet in that store filming.

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