Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[Daradon]

^^^ Exactly.

Allowing him to stay just to make it 'more democratic' (if that's even a thing, as I believe protest to be very important to democracy) is just plain silly.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Don't forget, Pointman may have to straddle a bit of a line here. We've seen how Putin's government deals with dissenters and people who disagree. And the internet is watched very very closely. I know I'd be nervous about posting anything too critical if I was a citizen there.

That's a empty rationalization. No one is holding a gun to his head forcing him to post things. If he posts garbage it's because he chooses to post garbage.

[Daradon]

I dunno. I think the different perspective is interesting, especially due to the proximity to the situation.

I don't think its all been 'garbage' and therefore still better than him not posting.

[Thor]

A friend of mine, she's Russian living in Dubai, is brutal when it comes to patriotism, so much anger towards the US and the sanctions.

I think the nationalism is so deep in that culture because of the old Soviet Union, the humiliating way it ended, and the struggles since. They instead of looking inwards for blame seem to lash out at the west, which is ironic since so much of their improved economy comes from outside investors, but its the internal corruption and criminal organizations that screw the regular Russian people.

The scapegoating is really well done by the Putin government, the people lap it up.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Thor

A friend of mine, she's Russian living in Dubai, is brutal when it comes to patriotism, so much anger towards the US and the sanctions.

I think the nationalism is so deep in that culture because of the old Soviet Union, the humiliating way it ended, and the struggles since. They instead of looking inwards for blame seem to lash out at the west, which is ironic since so much of their improved economy comes from outside investors, but its the internal corruption and criminal organizations that screw the regular Russian people.

The scapegoating is really well done by the Putin government, the people lap it up.

It's really amazing how deep the scapegoating actually runs and how well the Russian government plays exactly into that mindset. In a recent survey of the Russian public, 73% now respond that the nation is in an economic and foreign relations crisis and yet there is still an 86% approval rating for their leadership. It's rare that would happen in any other nation that I can think of right now. Almost half of the Russian population believe it's international bullying because Russia is a "super power".

A public opinion poll conducted by the Institute of Priority Regional Projects in February 2015 4 showed that three-fourths of Russians see the situation in the country as a crisis, Nikolai Mironov, general director of the Institute, said.

The poll surveyed 1,600 Russian citizens aged older than 18. It was conducted in 120 populated areas in 43 regions of Russia.

"The poll was timed to the March 1 rallies and not only to them. Its purpose was to determine people general attitude to the crisis, the opposition, the authorities' actions, etc. The first question we asked people was aimed at determining the degree of people's concern about the situation in the country. It said 'Should the situation in the country be called a crisis, or are these problems temporary?' Three-fourths of the people, 73.3 percent, said they see the situation as a crisis," Mironov told a press conference on Thursday.

Mironov said 25.7 percent of the respondents see the situation "as temporary problems, not a crisis" and 1 percent were undecided.
"Older people tend to think there is a crisis in the country: 76.2 percent of the people who said so are people older than fifty and 62.4 percent are people younger than 24," he said.

Mironov said most people who talk about a crisis live in large cities and in cities with populations of over one million (77.6 percent and 77.8, respectively), in villages (67.5 percent) and in city-style settlements (71 percent).

Responding to a question about the causes of the crisis, 49.3 percent spoke about "the external pressure from the West to stop Russia being a global superpower," 43.6 percent spoke about the falling oil prices, and 34.6 percent spoke about inefficient economic policy and unwillingness to invest in industrial development.

http://rbth.com/news/2015/02/27/over...sia_44055.html

I love the Russian governments messaging all through the sanctions and how it's different depending on audience. To the EU and other countries the "sanctions don't do anything to us" and to Russians its "international sanctions are causing the economic crisis and it is nothing to do with Putin's foreign policy, corruption and incompetence"

[FlamesAddiction]

Sort of old news from last fall, but there was a soccer game in Belarus between Ukraine and Belarus, and in a rare case of reverse-hooliganism, Belarus fans started singing "Glory to Ukraine" and Ukrainian fans were singing "Long Live Belarus". Both sides were chanting "Putin is a dickhead".

Of course, Putin's KGB lap dogs in Belarus made arrests over it.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/10/10/...rested-by-kgb/

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

It's really amazing how deep the scapegoating actually runs and how well the Russian government plays exactly into that mindset. In a recent survey of the Russian public, 73% now respond that the nation is in an economic and foreign relations crisis and yet there is still an 86% approval rating for their leadership. It's rare that would happen in any other nation that I can think of right now. Almost half of the Russian population believe it's international bullying because Russia is a "super power".



http://rbth.com/news/2015/02/27/over...sia_44055.html

I love the Russian governments messaging all through the sanctions and how it's different depending on audience. To the EU and other countries the "sanctions don't do anything to us" and to Russians its "international sanctions are causing the economic crisis and it is nothing to do with Putin's foreign policy, corruption and incompetence"

I'm also a little bit surprised that the Russian government isn't blaming their difficulties on the Jews and the international banking conspiracy, too. In for a penny, in for a pound. Or is that too 1930-40'ish ??

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I'm also a little bit surprised that the Russian government isn't blaming their difficulties

To be fair we (that's the collective "we" representing western nations) worsen their financial issues with our sanctions.

That doesn't mean the sanctions are not deserved, and Putin may deserve all the blame from his actions in Ukraine, but I could understand where a Russian may dislike us for hurting their wallets.

Additionally, if it came out that US had some sort of hand in keep Saudi's oil production up to keep oil prices low, I don't think too many people would be shocked.

[jammies]

Pointman is unlikely to come give us his opinion if people keep on about him being "indoctrinated". Someone having different priorities and experiences than you doesn't mean you are impartial and they are biased.

I definitely don't agree with Russia's actions in the Ukraine, but on the other hand, you can't expect to continually encroach on a major power's sphere of influence and not get pushback. Ukraine moving towards NATO and the West is contrary to Russia's interests no matter who rules the country. Putin acquiescing meekly to Ukraine trying to join the West would have him out of power pretty quickly, he is only partly driving events and they are also partly driving him.

It's easy to sit here on the winning side of the Cold War and tell the Russians they should just accept being bankrupt losers and that the West is going to absorb what they see as buffer zones against foreign domination. Maybe that's the rational course, but it certainly isn't the emotionally palatable one.

[Language]

If I could use one word to describe this entire conflict, it would be: misinformation.

It's absolutely incredible (and props to the Russian propaganda machine for this), that they've been able to perpetuate a lie that western Ukraine is full of Nazi's and fascists, hell bent on either eradicating Russians and their culture, or some other nonsense. I watch the Vice News dispatches and listen to the DPR rebels talk about fighting for their homeland, etc., and I just have to shake my head at the things they are saying, because they honestly believe that the Ukrainian soldiers are on par with Nazi German soldiers. Meanwhile, the rebels are the ones that started the bloodshed to begin with.

It's truly an unfortunate situation now, because you have Ukrainian citizens in the Donbass and Eastern Ukraine (whether they have Ukrainian or Russian heritage), caught in the middle, and unfortunately, I don't think the situation will ever return to normal. You see citizens being interviewed there who absolutely denounce Poroshenko, suggesting he's a western fascist and how could he possibly be ordering the shelling of homes, killing civilians, etc. Meanwhile, they don't understand that the country is defending their territorial right.

I say all this with a bit of info about my background. I was born in Kiev (as were my parents and grandparents). I immigrated to Canada when I was very young, and growing up and until just last year, identified myself as Russian. This is because I grew up speaking Russian (not Ukrainian), and growing up with a crew of guys from the former USSR, it was easier to identify with Mother Russia. Our group of guys were always referred to as the Russian crew, and we were partly those douchy fobby track-pants wearing guys. Further, it seemed like every third person in Edmonton would say they were Ukrainian, even though they were born in Canada and were Ukrainian based on their grandparents or great-grandparents being from there. So identifying myself as Russian was a way to stand out more.

However, since this whole conflict started, it's amazing how quickly one can change their self-identification. I am firmly on side with Ukraine in this conflict, find Russian foreign policy and the propaganda machine completely out of line, and now don't even want to identify myself as being Russian. My nationalistic Ukrainian pride has seemingly risen from 0 to 100 in the past year.

Someone made the comment a few posts ago about how many Russian people (in Russia or abroad) are very indoctrinated and brain-washed, and that is absolutely true. We've had family dinners with relatives where aunts/uncles who mostly watch Russian satellite tv (NTV, RT), are so supportive of Russia in this conflict, that it makes you look at them completely dumfounded with the things they say. An aunt of mine was saying that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainians because the passenger airline just happened to be flying in the vicinity of Putin's presidential plane. And keep in mind, these are relatives living in Canada saying these bogus stories. It's absolutely no wonder those in Russia believe the spiel the government continually puts out there.

This is a ranting and drawn out post, and it doesn't really say much. However, for those who were wondering how Pointman believes the things he does, it just serves to illustrate that it's not only people in Russia, but many ex-USSR immigrants in Canada that agree with Russia's actions (annexation of Crimea, supporting the rebels), based on where they get their source of news.

[Duruss]

Originally Posted by Thor

A friend of mine, she's Russian living in Dubai, is brutal when it comes to patriotism, so much anger towards the US and the sanctions.

I think the nationalism is so deep in that culture because of the old Soviet Union, the humiliating way it ended, and the struggles since. They instead of looking inwards for blame seem to lash out at the west, which is ironic since so much of their improved economy comes from outside investors, but its the internal corruption and criminal organizations that screw the regular Russian people.

The scapegoating is really well done by the Putin government, the people lap it up.

Not too surprising, it really is kind of like how many people will blame outside factors for there problems rather than see that they need to change because it is easier and requires that you don't actually do anything.

This is also a classic tactic for those with power to redirect people's anger by going, "Look you see those people over there? They aren't like us they don't(Think/act/look/believe) the same as we do, they are the cause of our troubles. So get them there is no reason to look at the man behind the curtain."

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Duruss

Not too surprising, it really is kind of like how many people will blame outside factors for there problems rather than see that they need to change because it is easier and requires that you don't actually do anything.

Say like a certain former U.S. President blaming 9/11 for the economic meltdown?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by jammies

Pointman is unlikely to come give us his opinion if people keep on about him being "indoctrinated". Someone having different priorities and experiences than you doesn't mean you are impartial and they are biased.

I definitely don't agree with Russia's actions in the Ukraine, but on the other hand, you can't expect to continually encroach on a major power's sphere of influence and not get pushback. Ukraine moving towards NATO and the West is contrary to Russia's interests no matter who rules the country. Putin acquiescing meekly to Ukraine trying to join the West would have him out of power pretty quickly, he is only partly driving events and they are also partly driving him.

It's easy to sit here on the winning side of the Cold War and tell the Russians they should just accept being bankrupt losers and that the West is going to absorb what they see as buffer zones against foreign domination. Maybe that's the rational course, but it certainly isn't the emotionally palatable one.

The thing is, they wouldn't have to be bankrupt losers if (your words, not mine) they started behaving with the rest of the western world. And by that, I don't mean being a satellite, or a lap dog. I'm not saying 'they lost they need to know their place'. I'm just saying, be an ally, be part of the global solution. Bring prosperity to your own people and work with other nations.

In the days of Gorbachev and Yeltsin, there was talk like this. The US and Russia, actually allies. The idea was to work towards that. It could have been that way. But corrupt leaders, and plutocrats have taken control of the country and they just use old world national sentiment against their own people.

To me, 'emotionally palatable' is simply a very VERY misplaced sense of pride. And an unwillingness to look within to see the real problem. Neither their leaders nor the people should have felt worried about NATO expanding into an now imaginary buffer zone if they were getting their own house in order. But somehow, they went backwards and it got to that point.

This isn't a shot at you jammies, as I totally get what your saying, and your one of my favorite posters. I get the two sides of an argument idea, just that this one is such a chicken and egg argument or mentality. It could only be seen as encroachment if you still held the values of the old USSR. A free Russia with it's own house in order has nothing to fear from NATO or the West. It's only because they started drifting back to their old ways, and were ok with corrupt leadership, that one could even use the argument of encroachment to begin with.

[FlameOn]

I really wonder why so many Russians are so unquestioning of their state media. Is it just an access problem, lack of education or is it just a vestigial leftover of the cold war mindset??

In any case, this isn't going to help the education part. Russia today announced that it's only Gulag museum is closing due to mounting political pressure from the Kremlin.

museum commemorating the victims of Soviet-era political repressions is closing down after months of government pressure.

Perm-36 — the only museum in Russia created on the site of a former gulag camp — is "ceasing its activities and beginning the process of self-liquidation," the museum said in a statement Monday.

The shutdown comes at a time when the number of Russians viewing Soviet dictator Josef Stalin positively has risen to more than half of the population (52 percent), according to a recent Levada Center poll, and amid heightened government rhetoric extolling Soviet-era achievements.

Government investigators reportedly inspected Perm-36 — named for the infamous labor camp on whose site it was created more than two decades ago — for "extremism" last year, following a complaint by a television viewer who felt prompted to act by a program aired by state-run broadcaster NTV titled "Fifth Column."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...re/516920.html

And how is it that Stalin really continues to be glorified to the extent that he is given the death toll attributed to his purges and policies is close to 20 million people.

Meanwhile US intelligence puts current estimates of Russian military personnel in Ukraine at around 12000 with a previous peak of around 29000.

The U.S. military estimates around 12,000 Russian soldiers are supporting pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, U.S. Army Europe Commander Ben Hodges said on Tuesday.

The Russian forces are made up of military advisers, weapons operators and combat troops, Hodges said in a speech in Berlin, adding that a further 29,000 soldiers were stationed in the Crimea peninsula that Moscow annexed from Ukraine last year.

In addition, 50,000 troops are positioned on the Russian side of the border with Ukraine in case the separatists suffer a severe setback and the Ukrainian army gains the upper hand, Hodges said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LZ2FV20150303

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Daradon

The thing is, they wouldn't have to be bankrupt losers if (your words, not mine) they started behaving with the rest of the western world.

I agree - the best thing for the country would be to embrace not only capitalism, but proper democratic institutions and the rule of law. A truly democratic and civilized Russia would be a major economic power. But that's hard, and pushing around smaller nations with their army is easy.

Originally Posted by Daradon

To me, 'emotionally palatable' is simply a very VERY misplaced sense of pride. And an unwillingness to look within to see the real problem. Neither their leaders nor the people should have felt worried about NATO expanding into an now imaginary buffer zone if they were getting their own house in order. But somehow, they went backwards and it got to that point.

It's somewhat an unwillingness to look objectively at themselves and somewhat what history has taught - once the Soviet Union collapsed, their economy kept contracting and eventually, in the late 90s, crashed altogether. Back in the old days, the average Soviet citizen thought they were at least better off, if not as free as the West, but after the closed society became open, they could see how truly poor they were and had always been. Worse, the "solutions" recommended by those who wanted to emulate the West just seemed to make things worse, not better.

Now Putin gives them billionaires, reality TV and jingoism. So they're still (mostly) poor, but at least they are entertained and told their nation is powerful. That's far more convincing than what they see as hypocritical rhetoric about freedom and opportunity from countries that are fat and complacent with their lot.

[Vulcan]

I've heard Russians say that they'd rather have world status as a power than to have a better standard of living. If this is what they miss the most, it makes Putin's job easy.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I've heard Russians say that they'd rather have world status as a power than to have a better standard of living. If this is what they miss the most, it makes Putin's job easy.

lol, that's a little tough to believe.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I've heard Russians say that they'd rather have world status as a power than to have a better standard of living. If this is what they miss the most, it makes Putin's job easy.

Kinda like how people say they wouldn't want to win the lottery as it would "mess up their lives". Or you never want to hook up with that super hot girl, "she's probably crazy".

It is something you know isn't going to happen in the first place so you can try to spin your (miserable crappy standard of) life a little more positively and say you wouldn't change it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I've heard Russians say that they'd rather have world status as a power than to have a better standard of living. If this is what they miss the most, it makes Putin's job easy.

Like real Russians, living in Russia?


Don't get me wrong I ain't trying to be a dick, but I find that "insert nationality here" that don't live in the country often have a different or romanticized view of life back in that country.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I'm also a little bit surprised that the Russian government isn't blaming their difficulties on the Jews and the international banking conspiracy, too. In for a penny, in for a pound. Or is that too 1930-40'ish ??

Russian society is pretty racist. The anti-Jew thing is a big part of why they are so willing to accept the government run RT as media. They tend to use code words like capitalist or gangster when discussing Jews.

Their also extremely bigoted towards their Asian, black, homosexual, and Muslim minorities.