Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[Plett25]

A question for CP law-talking people... what would have been the outcome of a Zimmerman trial in Canada?

Let's say the facts are as follows:

1. Zimmerman reported suspicious activity in a public area to the police
2. Zimmerman was armed when he went to investigate (to Canadianize the story, let's say he took a shotgun)
3. The police told Zimmerman to stop following Martin and let them deal with it
4. A physical altercation takes place and Martin is killed

I think those points are pretty much agreed upon by all sides.

The points in contention are who instigated the fight and did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin after being told by police to stop. I think it is most likely that:

• Zimmerman kept following Martin after the Police told him to stop
• and, Martin started the fight

So in the Canadian legal system, do those 6 "facts" look like 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter or nothing?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. No but there is more to it than skin colour - I have been in many US cities and most non blacks don't rip it across the street when they see the black man coming.

2. There might some isolated incidents but it's real hard one to study - every criminal investigation is different - I struggle see how you can simplify it for public consumption. It might just be a case of proverty than skin color - OJ Simpson probably killed two people - was found incident thanks to money, a inept prosecution and a jury who didn't quite understand DNA

Isolated incidents? Read the links I posted. Does wealth play a factor? Sure, but so does skin color.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

Isolated incidents? Read the links I posted. Does wealth play a factor? Sure, but so does skin color.

Here's the problem I have and why I look at things the way I do. There are racist people in this world - some in high positions - but sometimes people use the race card to mask the bigger problem and I don't see how that is productive.

Suggesting that XXX amount of whites are drug users and XX amount of Africans Americans are drug user but twice as many African Americans are in jail on drug charges

That's such a simple statement and to suggest that because of the above is all because African Americans get unfair treatment in the courts - is your only conclusion - that to me is not productive - it may be part of the problem, but the problem is way greater than just the race card.

500+ black on black killings in Chicago in the last year.......

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Here's the problem I have and why I look at things the way I do. There are racist people in this world - some in high positions - but sometimes people use the race card to mask the bigger problem and I don't see how that is productive.

Suggesting that XXX amount of whites are drug users and XX amount of Africans Americans are drug user but twice as many African Americans are in jail on drug charges

That's such a simple statement and to suggest that because of the above is all because African Americans get unfair treatment in the courts - is your only conclusion - that to me is not productive - it may be part of the problem, but the problem is way greater than just the race card.

500+ black on black killings in Chicago in the last year.......

I think that's massively over simplifying things, and also ignoring a hell of a lot and pretending that these statements are conclusions based in opinion when in fact they are supported by significant research.

Here's a study found with a quick google search: http://www.asanet.org/images/press/d...ARaceCrime.pdf

Here's part of the conclusion: "Without a doubt, great racial disparities and overrepresentation of minorities exist at all decision points in criminal justice processing, and have significant social consequences, but they may not all reflect race biases."

Not all instances of disparate treatment are based upon bias, but many certainly are.

On a related matter, let's go back to the question I asked earlier regarding poverty, do you believe that race has anything to do with the degree of poverty among minority populations?

I'm also not sure what relevance the number of black on black killings has. What are you trying to point out? That there is significant violent crime in ghettos? That minorities often live in these ghettos?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Here's the problem I have and why I look at things the way I do. There are racist people in this world - some in high positions - but sometimes people use the race card to mask the bigger problem and I don't see how that is productive.

Suggesting that XXX amount of whites are drug users and XX amount of Africans Americans are drug user but twice as many African Americans are in jail on drug charges

That's such a simple statement and to suggest that because of the above is all because African Americans get unfair treatment in the courts - is your only conclusion - that to me is not productive - it may be part of the problem, but the problem is way greater than just the race card.

500+ black on black killings in Chicago in the last year.......

That's my only conclusion? Did i not just say in my post that wealth plays a factor? There are other factors too, but you can't ignore racial bias because other factors exist as well. The justice system isn't the only thing keeping blacks in a perpetual cycle of poverty it's just one of the things.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Plett25

A question for CP law-talking people... what would have been the outcome of a Zimmerman trial in Canada?

Let's say the facts are as follows:

1. Zimmerman reported suspicious activity in a public area to the police
2. Zimmerman was armed when he went to investigate (to Canadianize the story, let's say he took a shotgun)
3. The police told Zimmerman to stop following Martin and let them deal with it
4. A physical altercation takes place and Martin is killed

I think those points are pretty much agreed upon by all sides.

The points in contention are who instigated the fight and did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin after being told by police to stop. I think it is most likely that:

• Zimmerman kept following Martin after the Police told him to stop
• and, Martin started the fight

So in the Canadian legal system, do those 6 "facts" look like 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter or nothing?

In Canada, Zimmerman would not have had a gun to begin with.

All we can really do is speculate. It would still be up to the crown to prove that Zimmerman continued following Martin. I don't know how that is the "most likely" explanation.

Assuming we are in a situation where Zimmerman is allowed to carry a gun, I'm guessing the results would be pretty similar. There's nothing to prove what happened between the point that Zimmerman says "ok" after being asked not to follow and the time witnesses see Martin on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman has injuries including blood coming out of the back of his head and a broken nose. When it comes to blows to the back of the head, it takes surprisingly little force to result in a lethal blow.

In both Canada and the US it doesn't matter who creates the situation initially. Even if Zimmerman had thrown the first blow, if the tables turn, you're still allowed to respond with lethal force if you reasonably believe you are in danger of death or severe bodily harm.

Edit: to add to this. America is probably the easiest country in the Western world to get convicted of a crime in and has the harshest sentences in the Western world.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

On a related matter, let's go back to the question I asked earlier regarding poverty, do you believe that race has anything to do with the degree of poverty among minority populations?

In terms of genetics? Yes I do.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

That's my only conclusion? Did i not just say in my post that wealth plays a factor? There are other factors too, but you can't ignore racial bias because other factors exist as well. The justice system isn't the only thing keeping blacks in a perpetual cycle of poverty it's just one of the things.

Not ignoring it - just seems that other issues are ignored because of it

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

In terms of genetics? Yes I do.

Uh, what?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Not ignoring it - just seems that other issues are ignored because of it

Go on. You don't seem to actually want to discuss the issues here. What other issues are ignored?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by valo403

Uh, what?

Yeah, huh? Do you believe minorities are genetically inferior (question directed at MelBridgeman) and that causes them have tendencies that lead to poverty? I don't want to put words in your mouth so please clarify.

[CaptainCrunch]

Well it looks like Zimmerman pretty well went back to the same neighbourhood that he lived in after the trial

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=197...F2_T2s%26s%3D1

George Zimmerman, who has been in hiding since he was acquitted of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, emerged to help rescue a family who was trapped in an overturned vehicle, police said today.
Zimmerman was one of two men who came to the aid of a family of four -- two parents and two children -- trapped inside a blue Ford Explorer SUV that had rolled over after traveling off the highway in Sanford, Fla. at approximately 5:45 p.m. Thursday, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said in a statement.
The crash occurred at the intersection of I-4 and route Route 46, police said. The crash site is less than a mile from where Zimmerman shot Martin.
By the time police arrived, two people - including Zimmerman - had already helped the family get out of the overturned car, the sheriff's office said. No one was reported to be injured.
Zimmerman was not a witness to the crash and left after speaking with the deputy, police said.
It's the first known sighting of Zimmerman since he left the courtroom following his acquittal last week on murder charges for the death of Martin. Zimmerman, 29, shot and killed Martin, 17, in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, 2012. The jury determined that Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense.
READ MORE: 'Justice for Trayvon' Rallies Bring Martin's Family to the Fight
The acquittal prompted dozens of protests across the country this past weekend and his lawyers have said that Zimmerman has been the subject of death threats. His lawyers said Zimmerman has been wearing a bullet-proof vest when he ventures out in public.
Zimmerman's parents told ABC News' Barbara Walters they too have received death threats and have been unable to return to their home.
Zimmerman's Parents in Hiding from 'Enormous Amount of Death Threats': ABC News Exclusive
"We have had an enormous amount of death threats. George's legal counsel has had death threats, the police chief of Sanford, many people have had death threats," Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman said."'Everyone with Georgie's DNA should be killed' -- just every kind of horrible thing you can imagine."

Very sad and disgusting that his parents have received death threats as well.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

Yeah, huh? Do you believe minorities are genetically inferior (question directed at MelBridgeman) and that causes them have tendencies that lead to poverty? I don't want to put words in your mouth so please clarify.

Nope I think that's highly unlikely it's more social economic in origin. My statement came out wrong - it was a question and than an answer but I wasn't answering my own question just the the posters.

It's really is a complex issue...I don't know where to even begin.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Nope I think that's highly unlikely it's more social economic in origin. My statement came out wrong - it was a question and than an answer but I wasn't answering my own question just the the posters.

It's really is a complex issue...I don't know where to even begin.

Here's a hint... Start at slavery.

In reality I believe a lot of different groups need to take more responsibility for the inequality. And yes, the minorities themselves need to take some responsibility for the culture that is out there that the young black kids are growing up in, however the government hasn't addressed inequalities in their system and that's something that should be focused on more.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

Go on. You don't seem to actually want to discuss the issues here. What other issues are ignored?

African Americans in the US have a lot in common with Natives in Canada...

Both make up the vast majority of prisoners of their respective countries.
Both have had prior histories of being treated inferior by the majority.

I'll stop there is point 2 the root cause?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

Here's a hint... Start at slavery.

Just did! Also compared them to the Natives in Canada - lots of similarities and how both were treated in history and the problems they face today

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Nope I think that's highly unlikely it's more social economic in origin. My statement came out wrong - it was a question and than an answer but I wasn't answering my own question just the the posters.

It's really is a complex issue...I don't know where to even begin.

That doesn't explain your answer. I asked if you believe race plays a role in increased poverty among minorities, you said that genetically yes it does. What about the genetics of minorities has caused them to experience increased levels of poverty?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

African Americans in the US have a lot in common with Natives in Canada...

Both make up the vast majority of prisoners of their respective countries.
Both have had prior histories of being treated inferior by the majority.

I'll stop there is point 2 the root cause?

What is point 2? Prior mistreatment? I'd say that yes, prior mistreatment plays a significant role. I'd also point out that prior mistreatment implies something that is not still ongoing, which is not the case at all.

Can we get back to some of the other points you've ducked.

What's the purpose of citing the black on black murder stats? What does that show?

What issues are being ignored? What's the "bigger problem" that's being masked?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

That doesn't explain your answer. I asked if you believe race plays a role in increased poverty among minorities, you said that genetically yes it does. What about the genetics of minorities has caused them to experience increased levels of poverty?

All people on this planet evolve from Africans, so no genetics does not play a role.

[Tinordi]

I'm sure this has been gone over ad nauseum but:

I could care less if someone was black or white, it's just sickening that a civilian can shoot a teenager dead in 2013 because he was afraid of them.

Call the police if you see someone suspicious or you see a crime happening. How could a country empower weekend warrior whackjobs as judge, juries and executioners?