[Trade] Rights of Jimmy Vesey to Buffalo for a 2016 3rd (76th OA)

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think the market will fix itself, actually. 'The Russian Factor' will come into play, and I do think that teams will try to persuade the prospects they drafted to opt into a different development path instead of the NCAA route, so that they can sign contracts.

The NCAA will be the ones that will eventually cave-in. That is, if there is a market correction. If NHL teams are persuading less and less kids to go the NCAA route, I really do think the NCAA will eventually allow teams to sign a player without voiding their amateur status. Maybe a caveat is that the money has to remain in a trust. Who knows.

I just think that if the NCAA continues to be adamant that a kid signing a pro contract is grounds for voiding his NCAA eligibility, and more and more talent opt-out of signing with the team that drafted them, then eventually the NCAA is going to find itself having less talent overall as teams encourage prospects to play somewhere else.

A different structure but how many NBA'ers go straight to the pros? Obviously the best ones do this, this doesn't dissuade the NCAA to change it's rules in this situation.

Maybe because hockey isn't as popular a sport with less kids playing that it could hurt NCAA hockey more. Wouldn't adding an extra year of rights if a kid goes NCAA fix all of this? How difficult would this be and where would the pushback come from?

[Jay Random]

The trouble with the NCAA is that all their rules about amateur status were designed primarily for football players, and based on the peculiar relationship they've had with the NFL over the years. Whatever happens to athletes in other sports is an afterthought at best. College football is what brings in the money.

Which means, I'm afraid, that there's nothing the NHL (or NBA, or MLB) can do that is likely to make the NCAA lighten up on some of their sillier rules.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The trouble with the NCAA is that all their rules about amateur status were designed primarily for football players, and based on the peculiar relationship they've had with the NFL over the years. Whatever happens to athletes in other sports is an afterthought at best. College football is what brings in the money.

Which means, I'm afraid, that there's nothing the NHL (or NBA, or MLB) can do that is likely to make the NCAA lighten up on some of their sillier rules.

The NHL actually gets special treatment already. They are the only league that can draft players before they leave college.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

A different structure but how many NBA'ers go straight to the pros? Obviously the best ones do this, this doesn't dissuade the NCAA to change it's rules in this situation.

Maybe because hockey isn't as popular a sport with less kids playing that it could hurt NCAA hockey more. Wouldn't adding an extra year of rights if a kid goes NCAA fix all of this? How difficult would this be and where would the pushback come from?

The pushback would be the NHLPA will want a concession from the owners. If you want to change a CBA to benefit teams by giving an extra year of rights, then the NHLPA will want to change another part of the CBA to their advantage.

For example, they might ask for the UFA age for all players to be lowered from 27 to 26. Is that worth it to the NHL? For one or two prospects out of hundreds that take advantage of the 4 year rule every year? Nope.

The exact concession wouldn't probably be known or can be speculated on unless you have been involved in CBA negotiations, but to get the NHLPA to change it, the NHL will have to give something up that just may not be worth it.

[gargamel]

You're probably right, but college guys can't be members of the NHLPA, can they? Assuming not, it would be surprising that NHLPA would fight that hard for them. If anything, it would be to their advantage to prevent college players from being able to choose destinations where they're more likely to secure NHL spots.

[Alberta_Beef]

The obvious solution is make it so you can't draft players that are NCAA bound. If they are committed to college they cannot be drafted until they declare themselves eligible for the draft and would then lose their NCAA status. Not sure if the NHL or PA have any desire in doing that though.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Is your point that in a situation where it would hard to be able to look at it objectively, it would be hard to be objective?

Of course you'd be upset if you were a Preds fan, or upset of Gaudreau did it to Calgary... because you're biased.

Being upset isn't the same as being right.

We've got exactly nothing to judge Vesey's class on and anyone who tries is petty. It's immature. This is a business.

Obviously not. Some people just seemed to be looking at it only from the player's perspective, ignoring the fact that an organization and fanbase have a lot invested in the outcome as well. The way it's "supposed" to work is that the team has control over where a drafted player starts his career, then there's a balance after a few years when the player becomes a restricted free agent, then a player gets unrestricted control once they've put in the years of service to pay back the investment of a draft pick, resources and time that a team has put into them.

Guys like Vesey who take a shortcut to unrestricted free agency do so at the expense of everyone else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. You can disagree with the majority of fans who don't like to see moves like this if you want, but to call us petty and immature seems a bit, well, petty and immature.

[Reign of Fire]

A solution to this problem is that a player refusing to sign with the team that drafted has to wait a full year before becoming a UFA. That will make them think twice about losing a year's worth of earnings.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Obviously not. Some people just seemed to be looking at it only from the player's perspective, ignoring the fact that an organization and fanbase have a lot invested in the outcome as well. The way it's "supposed" to work is that the team has control over where a drafted player starts his career, then there's a balance after a few years when the player becomes a restricted free agent, then a player gets unrestricted control once they've put in the years of service to pay back the investment of a draft pick, resources and time that a team has put into them.

Guys like Vesey who take a shortcut to unrestricted free agency do so at the expense of everyone else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. You can disagree with the majority of fans who don't like to see moves like this if you want, but to call us petty and immature seems a bit, well, petty and immature.

The player has lost out by not signing with the team earlier. If he is willing to lose out on a year of earnings by going back to school for his senior year, then its his call.

The rules are out there. These teams can be all hurt by it, but it shouldn't come as a huge shock. As soon as the player goes to his senior year, they should be preparing for this.

[Poe969]

or they'll go play in europe and get paid more...

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by Poe969

or they'll go play in europe and get paid more...

Just about began feverishly searching for a meme to describe the absolute disbelief, as I meant to tap the Last thing.../Sean & Johnny contract thread.

Lol they'd change the face of the sport over there no doubt.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Obviously not. Some people just seemed to be looking at it only from the player's perspective, ignoring the fact that an organization and fanbase have a lot invested in the outcome as well. The way it's "supposed" to work is that the team has control over where a drafted player starts his career, then there's a balance after a few years when the player becomes a restricted free agent, then a player gets unrestricted control once they've put in the years of service to pay back the investment of a draft pick, resources and time that a team has put into them.

Except the way it DOES work, and has worked for a significant amount of time, is that drafted players who commit to college can't be signed and, therefore, are always at risk of not playing for your team (despite how small that risk is). That's the way it's "supposed" to work, that's the way it does work. Do you think that, from an organisational or fan perspective, they don't see this as a possibility? Because if they don't, it's ignorance on their part. It's part of the college route.

Originally Posted by gargamel

Guys like Vesey who take a shortcut to unrestricted free agency do so at the expense of everyone else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. You can disagree with the majority of fans who don't like to see moves like this if you want, but to call us petty and immature seems a bit, well, petty and immature.

He didn't take a shortcut, he simply didn't sign. It came at his own expense as well as he missed out on an NHL wage and exposure, so to think of it as "he's only hurting everyone else!" is actually pretty selfish in itself. The guy gave up over a million dollars to be able to choose his destination in a completely normal contract situation. You call that selfish (among other names). That's why you got labelled petty.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The player has lost out by not signing with the team earlier. If he is willing to lose out on a year of earnings by going back to school for his senior year, then its his call.

The rules are out there. These teams can be all hurt by it, but it shouldn't come as a huge shock. As soon as the player goes to his senior year, they should be preparing for this.

I agree to some extent, but Vesey assured Nashville as recently as February of this year (when they were trying to make trade deadline plans) that he would sign with them. I know I'll be called petty again, but I don't see how anyone can argue that that wasn't selfish and classless of him.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gargamel

I agree to some extent, but Vesey assured Nashville as recently as February of this year (when they were trying to make trade deadline plans) that he would sign with them. I know I'll be called petty again, but I don't see how anyone can argue that that wasn't selfish and classless of him.

To quote the assistant GM of the Predators:

"We think we were promised his services, and at the end of the day, they, like every everybody else, can change their mind in life."

"They wanted to test free agency. He has a right to go to free agency."

Not getting a sense that the Predators think he's selfish or classless. It appears to be fans (even fans from other teams!) that are being the most reactionary about this. Nashville was only disappointed because they would've added offence at the deadline, that's all.

[nik-]

Poile still should have added. His plan on offence for a playoff push was to add an untested kid from the NCAA?

Ridiculous. Their fans should be just as angry at that.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't hate the player for doing this, but I hate that the rules allow them to do it.

Is it a labour law issue that the NHL allows this, because it certainly isn't in the best interests of the teams. I know that it rarely happens, but I still cringe when the Flames draft a university player because of this.

[EldrickOnIce]

CHL drafted players can do exactly the same thing. Refuse to sign with the team that drafted them. They re-enter the draft and can refuse to sign with that team too. So the same 4 year period to free agency applies to them as well.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

CHL drafted players can do exactly the same thing. Refuse to sign with the team that drafted them. They re-enter the draft and can refuse to sign with that team too. So the same 4 year period to free agency applies to them as well.

The same 4 year period applies, but the opportunity cost of doing so is much greater for CHL player because they will need to find a non NHL team to play on for at least one year; this might involve going to Europe. NCAA players play at the same place the entire time, are getting an education, and are forbidden from signing a contract until they are done college. As a result, if they complete their education, they only have to wait a few months before signing a contract, while CHL players have to find a place to play for a much longer period of time after finishing up their playing career in Juniors if they want to do the same thing.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

CHL drafted players can do exactly the same thing. Refuse to sign with the team that drafted them. They re-enter the draft and can refuse to sign with that team too. So the same 4 year period to free agency applies to them as well.

The teams take advantage of the 4 year thing as well. If the Preds had offered Vescey a deal after his first year - perhaps he'd have taken it instead of doing three more years of school.

If they waited until after his 3rd year to make an offer, then he's at a point where he only has to wait one more year to pick his own team. Much less incentive to sign at the point.

It was the risk the Flames took with Jankowski. They waited until he had more fully developed before offering him a deal and hoped that he'd sign after his senior year. It worked out, but I wouldn't have faulted the guy for waiting a few months to get to pick his team.

[SofaProfessor]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

The obvious solution is make it so you can't draft players that are NCAA bound. If they are committed to college they cannot be drafted until they declare themselves eligible for the draft and would then lose their NCAA status. Not sure if the NHL or PA have any desire in doing that though.

This is basically how it works for the NBA and NFL. Technically you lose your NCAA eligibility when you officially hire an agent to start negotiating your contract but that's pretty much a given once you're drafted or declaring for the draft.

If the NHL followed those same guidelines then it would almost surely reduce the number of guys waiting it out until they can sign where they want because they aren't burning years while developing in the NCAA.