Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I don’t disagree that their may be savings to be had but I also think you’re being a little over dramatic here. $80 to renew a document every 5 years doesn’t seem that outrageous to me. At the end of the day it probably makes sense that a passport costs more than a happy meal given what goes into it beyond just printing the document. Heck a driver’s license in Alberta costs $93 to renew and that’s all done by the private sector that’s supposedly saving us all kinds of money, with zero security checks involved.

Your idea to automatically re-issue them would probably end up costing us more since the government would be sending them to people who may not even want or need it renewed. You also don’t want more passports in circulation than necessary given the security risks, which is the same reason they need a printed image rather than one that idiots would probably photo shop if they used their phone to take it.

I get what you’re saying about opening bank accounts online but that’s also a completely different kettle of fish. One allows you to deposit, withdraw and use currency whereas the other is literally used to determine who you are, where you’re from and whether you get on an airplane or are allowed into a country. If the bank issues an account under a false name(which happens) the risk is all on them, if a country issues you a passport under a fake name there’s far greater consequences.

Like I said a simple text or email for renewal would take care of 80% of people - confirm your address, upload picture , pay a small fee, done. It’s simple .

The security risk is way lower on an image taken in real time from your phone vs going to Walmart and getting a picture “authenticated” from a Walmart photoshop . The same technology the airport use is now avail in apps for facial recognition

Drivers licence renewals are also a complete scam

And guess what - the government mandates how a renewal works for them too !

A private registry can’t offer online renewal where you upload your new picture and they send you a new license automatically

Literally the only difference on a renewal is the picture . Actually a drivers license you at least have to pay any outstanding fines, and sometimes take an eye exam !

People accepting these industries/policies is mind blowing . Any excuse to take more money from your pockets!

[PepsiFree]

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Passport Canada is entirely funded by passports. So it’s not just “admin” it’s literally everything they do that is funded through passports.

The Harper government increased the cost 10 or so years ago because they were actually losing money on each passport.

The seems like the most fair form of taxation, no? You want a passport, you pay for a passport, and nobody who doesn’t need nor want a passport has to subsidize anyone else’s ability to get one.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Passport Canada is entirely funded by passports. So it’s not just “admin” it’s literally everything they do that is funded through passports.

The Harper government increased the cost 10 or so years ago because they were actually losing money on each passport.

The seems like the most fair form of taxation, no? You want a passport, you pay for a passport, and nobody who doesn’t need nor want a passport has to subsidize anyone else’s ability to get one.

But it was just posted by Troutman that the passport system has made the government $1B in profit over the last ten years. Why is the program such a cash cow for the government?

[timun]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Now do the cheap countries. I have dual citizenship and my second passport only cost the equivalent of $50CAD.

I just picked English-speaking countries with similar-ish costs of living. I would be very surprised if most countries' passports aren't less expensive than Canada's.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

But it was just posted by Troutman that the passport system has made the government $1B in profit over the last ten years. Why is the program such a cash cow for the government?

The article is from 2018, it was $1B between 2013 and 2018.

They’re down to less than have that in their operating fund I believe. It’s not much of a “cash cow,” there are years where they are in positive and years in the negative, stretches where they are in the positive funds stretches in the negative.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

But it was just posted by Troutman that the passport system has made the government $1B in profit over the last ten years. Why is the program such a cash cow for the government?

So the passport department typically runs a nifty surplus...maybe that helps cover some of the embassy and consular services we have around the world?

$16 a year seems like a reasonable insurance premium to maintain access to those kind of services if you ever need them (which may of course involve more fees, but that's how any insurance works)

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So the passport department typically runs a nifty surplus...maybe that helps cover some of the embassy and consular services we have around the world?

$16 a year seems like a reasonable insurance premium to maintain access to those kind of services if you ever need them (which may of course involve more fees, but that's how any insurance works)

Looks like those services are provided by Global Affairs Canada with their own fee structure, revenue and budget.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Like I said a simple text or email for renewal would take care of 80% of people - confirm your address, upload picture , pay a small fee, done. It’s simple .

The security risk is way lower on an image taken in real time from your phone vs going to Walmart and getting a picture “authenticated” from a Walmart photoshop . The same technology the airport use is now avail in apps for facial recognition

Drivers licence renewals are also a complete scam

And guess what - the government mandates how a renewal works for them too !

A private registry can’t offer online renewal where you upload your new picture and they send you a new license automatically

Literally the only difference on a renewal is the picture . Actually a drivers license you at least have to pay any outstanding fines, and sometimes take an eye exam !

People accepting these industries/policies is mind blowing . Any excuse to take more money from your pockets!

How much do you think it should cost to renew a passport and why do you think that’s the right amount? How does that amount compare to the small fee you’re suggesting it would cost through an online renewal program?

Literally the only difference on a renewal is the picture

You know that is literally not the case, but even if you ignore the fact that peoples names change from marriage/divorce you can’t possibly think that there is no reason to very other details of a renewal, which is going to cost at least some money to have someone do. As for the photo aspect, I think you’re really underestimating how easily sending digital photos rather than hard copy ones can be abused but I would agree that is less likely to be as big of an issue for renewals. It’s probably the same reason why it’s not allowed for drivers licenses.

Actually a drivers license you at least have to pay any outstanding fines, and sometimes take an eye exam !

On behalf of all Canadians I’ll ask that you not give the passport office and CRA any ideas.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Looks like those services are provided by Global Affairs Canada with their own fee structure, revenue and budget.

Yes, I dug around there - they got $51M revenue from passport purchases and $1.4M from specialized consular fees last year. Consular services (now listed as 'Help for Canadians Abroad') expensed about $60M.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Like I said a simple text or email for renewal would take care of 80% of people - confirm your address, upload picture , pay a small fee, done. It’s simple .

The security risk is way lower on an image taken in real time from your phone vs going to Walmart and getting a picture “authenticated” from a Walmart photoshop . The same technology the airport use is now avail in apps for facial recognition

Drivers licence renewals are also a complete scam

And guess what - the government mandates how a renewal works for them too !

A private registry can’t offer online renewal where you upload your new picture and they send you a new license automatically

Literally the only difference on a renewal is the picture . Actually a drivers license you at least have to pay any outstanding fines, and sometimes take an eye exam !

People accepting these industries/policies is mind blowing . Any excuse to take more money from your pockets!

I think we are vastly underestimating the value the world places on a secure passport issuance and renewal system. Some sort of approach where you just text something in would be massively ripe for abuse. Any loss of trust in our passport systems likely means loss of visa waiver problems and just generally a pain in the you know what. I could care less about the current cost of a passport renewal, it’s a drop in the bucket compared to my travel costs, especially considering they last ten years and it’s one of the most respected passports around.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its the government. Administrative costs will be 10x more than they should be.

Plus its the Liberal government, so you have to account for the fact that they have to siphon off $250 million + and send it to their buddies.

Lol literally the post above this one- But yes, blame the Liberals

For comparison's sake, 10-year passports cost:
Irish are €75-€105 ($110-$153 CAD) if applied for online (more if by other means),
UK £82.50 ($140 CAD) if applied for online (£93 [$158 CAD] if by paper form),
New Zealand are $206 NZD ($171 CAD),
US first-time applicants $165 USD ($222 CAD); renewals are $130 USD ($175 CAD),
Australian are $346 AUD ($305 CAD) (!!!)

[timun]

Lol, was that Azure post a reply to mine? (I put him on my ignore list long ago.)

What a goof...

[Wormius]

How difficult are people finding applying for a passport? No need to act like it’s brain surgery. If you have problems, save the pdf you filled out, then it’s practically ready for you the next time you need it in 10 years.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by aaronck

Lol literally the post above this one- But yes, blame the Liberals

For comparison's sake, 10-year passports cost:
Irish are €75-€105 ($110-$153 CAD) if applied for online (more if by other means),
UK £82.50 ($140 CAD) if applied for online (£93 [$158 CAD] if by paper form),
New Zealand are $206 NZD ($171 CAD),
US first-time applicants $165 USD ($222 CAD); renewals are $130 USD ($175 CAD),
Australian are $346 AUD ($305 CAD) (!!!)

The comment was made in jest.

But its okay, I know people don't care about the hundreds of millions the Liberals are sending to their cronies.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by timun

The problem I have with incessant whining about government spending is that it's almost always without any context whatsoever, other than "it seems like a lot".

I see your point about whining without digging for context, but at the same time it's an unreasonable expectation that your average citizen go through this process for each government contract or budget item that gets awarded.
We need to be able to trust our elected officials are doing the appropriate bidding, tendering for quotes and selecting things wisely.

This passport thing is just a symptom of that larger problem, which is distrust in this government to spend fairly and appropriately, based on numerous examples of waste & cronyism contracts.
Now people want to pick at everything and the opposition wants to use everything as ammo.

They may have nailed the passport budget, maybe even saved us money, but people are understandably sceptical of them now.
I don't need to go through every government contract with a fine tooth comb to be entitled to say they're a wasteful government and I don't trust their finances.
The trust is gone, the ship has sailed.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by timun

The problem I have with incessant whining about government spending is that it's almost always without any context whatsoever, other than "it seems like a lot".

So this $284M contract for the new passports, let's talk about it. I'll ask you three questions:

1) Where did you hear about it?
2) What does the contract actually cover?
3) If this contract is unreasonably expensive, what should it cost?



Here are my guesses at those answers:

1) Where did you hear about it?

97% chance it was from this: https://www.westernstandard.news/new...14ad41347.html



As though this was secret knowledge buried by the Liberal government. It was a competitive public tender, the results of which were known five years ago. Anyone who wanted to know about could have looked it up on buyandsell.gc.ca. The only reason Rempel Garner even asked about it in the first place was media reports that the ends of the new passport book covers would curl in high humidity:



The amount spent on the program didn't bother her in the slightest for the previous four years. It's political grandstanding, nothing more.


2) What does the contract actually cover?

You think it's just "new artwork and updated security features". The contract 'components' from the government (refer to the Invitation to Qualify for the contract here; see p. 6) were:

• Passport books incorporating an ePassport chip (i.e. contactless integrated circuit);
• Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) environment (Certificate Authority, Document Signer, Certificate Revocation Lists, Master List signers, Active Authentication key pairs, other sub-Certificate Authorities and signers as required (e.g. visa signers), Links to International Civil Aviation Organization Public Key Directory (ICAO PKD));
• Supplemental Access Control (SAC) and Logical Data Structure (LDS) v1.8;
• Personalization of passport books by laser-engraving a polycarbonate data page where the ePassport chip is integrated inside the data page;
• Encoding solution;
• Interfaces between the different components of the solution;
• Quality assurance and quality control equipment and/or services for personalized books;
• Maintenance and Support Plan; and
• Passport book design.

The book design itself was but one small part of a greater overarching passport program. The contract is until the end of the 2025-26 fiscal year (see here, under "contract duration") with options to extend it to 2033, and it includes not only designing the new passports, but manufacturing them too (see p. 49 of the PDF I linked previously) and deploying new printers across the country to do so.

In the ITQ doc (pp. 32-33) they gave historical passport production volumes of about 4.9 million passports per year from 2012 to 2017, a forecast ~20 million passports from 2017 to 2024, and anticipated future production of 5.5 million per year thereafter.

So, roughly speaking, the contract is for the complete redesign of an entirely new generation of electronic passport with custom engraved polycarbonate security features and a microchip compatible with the latest international standards, and the production of 30 to 40 million of said passports over ten years. The proponent has to do all this out of a facility that meets "secret" security standards.

$284M / 30-40M passports = $7.10-$9.46 per passport. Does that still seem totally ####ing crazy to you? If so...


3) If this contract is unreasonably expensive, what should it cost?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I read this yesterday just hadn’t had much time to reply. I truly do appreciate your thoughtful, good reply.

On 1) yes it was some Rempel link or something, I can’t exactly remember where but maybe LinkedIn lol. I work in oil and gas after all. But yeah I actually did have some skepticism on it and went and found some link via Google that took me to the actual government of Canada website, that’s how I found the $284mm number- not $300 like Rempel was parlaying. However I obviously must not have read it all closely enough.

On 2) thanks for laying that out- I didn’t realize it included manufacture as well and that is actually a huge factor, and super disingenuous of Rempels link to not highlight that fact. Very misleading. Arguably should be more if it includes a commitment on manufacturing them too, possibly based on whatever equipment is needed to keep up with demand for new security features, I guess.

On 3) I have no idea, obviously. However I do question the need of new passports. I’ll have to look into if this was some sort of growing problem that Canadian passports were comprised from a security standpoint.

Regardless of all of the above, super misleading link on whatever I found. Do appreciate you taking the time to lay it out and counter it all.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I see your point about whining without digging for context, but at the same time it's an unreasonable expectation that your average citizen go through this process for each government contract or budget item that gets awarded.
We need to be able to trust our elected officials are doing the appropriate bidding, tendering for quotes and selecting things wisely.

This passport thing is just a symptom of that larger problem, which is distrust in this government to spend fairly and appropriately, based on numerous examples of waste & cronyism contracts.
Now people want to pick at everything and the opposition wants to use everything as ammo.

They may have nailed the passport budget, maybe even saved us money, but people are understandably sceptical of them now.
I don't need to go through every government contract with a fine tooth comb to be entitled to say they're a wasteful government and I don't trust their finances.
The trust is gone, the ship has sailed.

It goes the opposite way as well.

If you pick at everything and try to use everything as ammo and it turns out you’re shooting blanks, people are going to start to believe you’re full of it and that the real, valid criticism isn’t worth paying attention to.

If everything is wasteful and everything is a scandal, nothing is. People complain about apathetic voters and people not caring about scandals, but don’t care to give a single thought as to why.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I read this yesterday just hadn’t had much time to reply. I truly do appreciate your thoughtful, good reply.

On 1) yes it was some Rempel link or something, I can’t exactly remember where but maybe LinkedIn lol. I work in oil and gas after all. But yeah I actually did have some skepticism on it and went and found some link via Google that took me to the actual government of Canada website, that’s how I found the $284mm number- not $300 like Rempel was parlaying. However I obviously must not have read it all closely enough.

On 2) thanks for laying that out- I didn’t realize it included manufacture as well and that is actually a huge factor, and super disingenuous of Rempels link to not highlight that fact. Very misleading. Arguably should be more if it includes a commitment on manufacturing them too, possibly based on whatever equipment is needed to keep up with demand for new security features, I guess.

On 3) I have no idea, obviously. However I do question the need of new passports. I’ll have to look into if this was some sort of growing problem that Canadian passports were comprised from a security standpoint.

Regardless of all of the above, super misleading link on whatever I found. Do appreciate you taking the time to lay it out and counter it all.

With respect to point 3), they're on a 10-year redesign cycle, which is a best practice recommended by the ICAO (the UN agency that deals with civil aviation). The "next-generation ePassport" was something that was already on the horizon not long after the 2013 passports debuted. That's also why the current contract is until 2026 with options until 2033: because by 2033 they're expected to replace the passport design that just came out...

It's not unlike the Bank of Canada intending to update our bank notes every 10 years. The old ones from the '80s and '90s with birds on the back were introduced in 1986 and replaced in 2001, and the ones from 2001 were replaced with the first generation of plastic notes beginning in 2011, and that generation was being replaced beginning with the $10 in 2018. (Coincidentally both the passports and the bank notes are made by the Canadian Bank Note Company.)

[timun]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I see your point about whining without digging for context, but at the same time it's an unreasonable expectation that your average citizen go through this process for each government contract or budget item that gets awarded.
We need to be able to trust our elected officials are doing the appropriate bidding, tendering for quotes and selecting things wisely.

This passport thing is just a symptom of that larger problem, which is distrust in this government to spend fairly and appropriately, based on numerous examples of waste & cronyism contracts.
Now people want to pick at everything and the opposition wants to use everything as ammo.

They may have nailed the passport budget, maybe even saved us money, but people are understandably sceptical of them now.
I don't need to go through every government contract with a fine tooth comb to be entitled to say they're a wasteful government and I don't trust their finances.
The trust is gone, the ship has sailed.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It goes the opposite way as well.

If you pick at everything and try to use everything as ammo and it turns out you’re shooting blanks, people are going to start to believe you’re full of it and that the real, valid criticism isn’t worth paying attention to.

If everything is wasteful and everything is a scandal, nothing is. People complain about apathetic voters and people not caring about scandals, but don’t care to give a single thought as to why.

Bingo!

I get the frustration at the government spending—I'm not saying there aren't issues with out-of-control spending on some programs (e.g. ArriveCan maybe, definitely the new generation of frigates being built by Irving...). But when every single god-damned penny of government money being spent on anything is being made into a scandal, then... there are no scandals. It's all just nonsense at that point.

I've said this much before in this thread:

Originally Posted by timun

We've also become numb to these calls for resignations because the opposition parties call for it all the time, over just about anything. In this respect I think the alleged unwavering adherence to our "adversarial" Westminster parliamentary system is failing us. (I say "alleged" because I believe the opposition uses "we're just doing our job as opposition!" as an excuse for crappy governance, and a cudgel for political gains.) Conservatives are calling for Mendicino's resignation because that's what they do for just about anything and everything: they oppose everything the government does, paint them in the least flattering manner possible, and at a certain point its inevitable (to me) that all the bluster falls on deaf ears.

Originally Posted by timun

I think you missed my point. They don't just oppose the government "if they don't agree with what they're doing": they oppose everything for any reason whatsoever.

Originally Posted by timun

Nominally that's how our Westminster parliamentary system is "supposed" to work: the opposition is adversarial toward the government and out of this adversarial relationship the faults of the government's bills are debated and resolved and ideally "better" policy is passed into law.

In reality the opposition makes mountains out of everything let alone just molehills and as such their sometimes justifiable complaints go unnoticed. We the people are told everything the government does is terrible, whether it's actually reasonable policy or actually terrible policy, and in a sad sort of "boy-who-cried-wolf" situation a huge chunk of us tune out and don't really care.

Sadly the government uses as much parliamentary "privilege" as possible to pass things through without debate at all, whether it's reasonable policy or terrible policy, but especially when it's terrible policy. As a result of ineffectual opposition and government using (abusing?) its authority to its fullest extent we get crappy governance. Hooray!

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by timun

Bingo!

I get the frustration at the government spending—I'm not saying there aren't issues with out-of-control spending on some programs (e.g. ArriveCan maybe, definitely the new generation of frigates being built by Irving...). But when every single god-damned penny of government money being spent on anything is being made into a scandal, then... there are no scandals. It's all just nonsense at that point.

I've said this much before in this thread:

To the bolded, did you really intent to type maybe? Come on, I am not sure the government even knows how many millions of taxpayers dollars it cost.

But, when it comes to spending, yes, every god-damned penny should be accounted for. Regardless of who the governing party is.