Israel declares war on Hamas

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I’m not going to change your view or others nor argue about something so god damn irrelevant just to argue with you. There is no point. Q thinks Israel should lay down their weapons and their very peaceful arab neighbors will allow Israel to exist. Delusion

Am I Q? I've never said that Israel should lay down their weapons.

I'm asking what's fundamentally different about one group of people claiming their ancestral/religious homeland vs. another? Do you consider the Jewish claim to Israel as more legitimate than say the Lekwungen-speaking peoples' claims to Vancouver Island?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

You seem to have missed this part:



Israel already has the status of a LGBTQ haven.

Yes, there is a politician who is opposed to that. I suppose there aren't any politicians in North America or other democracies opposed to LGBTQ rights though? All that shows is that Israel has freedom of religion, speech, and political position. Unfortunately, that also means some people with awful views get to vote and speak, just like here.

“Hey guys, you missed the most important part of the article because you read the article instead of just the headline. Here are two words in the headline that tell the actual story.”

Great stuff.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Holy God man.

Nobody is asking Israel to lay down their arms... not me at least. They can have all the arms of the world as well as the arsenal of nukes if they makes them feel safe.

What I'm saying is, seriously set up a 2 state solution. Stop ####ing with the Palestinians and wish peace, prosperity and well being on your neighbour. If some jews want to live in palestine, it's all good. If they want to leave, that's OK too.

We're in agreement then. The two state solution is the only way to proceed. That means states clearly defined for both Jews and Arabs.

At the end of the day both people need to accept that both people are there and not going anywhere. Neither has shown the ability or willingness to fairly govern the other.

[JackJack]

Originally Posted by Beninho

It’s an ethno-religion. There is no point in trying to explain this to a legitimate idiot like yourself. You do not need to be religious to be a Jew. You also cannot just convert to the religion. It takes years for someone to convert but there is no point in trying to explain this to you.

I've been reading this thread to keep informed on the topic.

While I appreciate the passionate discourse, the Mods have specifically asked to keep it civil. There is no place for this kind of nonsense on this forum. If you can't participate with civility and respect, just leave.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I’m not going to compare situations that are entirely different, in a different part of the world, with an entirely different history. Go bait someone else. I’m done arguing with the Palestinian/Hamas apologists in this thread. Always the victim and never accountable. Why they are in this mess in the first place

It isn't bait, colonialism is a process that is both local and global. There is legitimate value in discussions surrounding settler colonialism.

this is because colonialism is up held through physical and discursive force. Colonialism on Vancouver island and Isreal are brokered through British involvement, these are processes which borrow from one another.

The mechanism that is most revenant is Deterritorialization;
the process by which a social relation, called a territory, has its current organization and context altered, mutated or destroyed.

The arguments that you make about rightful land ownership based on cultural rights are the same discursive forces that impact how colonialism is experienced in Canada as well as in the middle east.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Am I Q? I've never said that Israel should lay down their weapons.

I'm asking what's fundamentally different about one group of people claiming their ancestral/religious homeland vs. another? Do you consider the Jewish claim to Israel as more legitimate than say the Lekwungen-speaking peoples' claims to Vancouver Island?

I do not know enough about Indigenous rights or history to comment. I would imagine their right is just as legitimate.

Edit: and for anyone wondering, I have stated previously that Palestinians are just as entitled to land. My issue has always been that the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith with Israel in my opinion.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I do not know enough about Indigenous rights or history to comment. I would imagine their right is just as legitimate.

Okay, cool. That's al I was asking. Cheers.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by JackJack

I've been reading this thread to keep informed on the topic.

While I appreciate the passionate discourse, the Mods have specifically asked to keep it civil. There is no place for this kind of nonsense on this forum. If you can't participate with civility and respect, just leave.

Lol, hes been lambasting Jewish history as “fairy tales” and “stories” comparing Jews a 3,000 year old ethno-religion to mormons. If me calling him an idiot is uncalled for then my bad. I’m not trying to derail this thread

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Holy God man.

Nobody is asking Israel to lay down their arms... not me at least. They can have all the arms of the world as well as the arsenal of nukes if they makes them feel safe.

What I'm saying is, seriously set up a 2 state solution. Stop ####ing with the Palestinians and wish peace, prosperity and well being on your neighbour. If some jews want to live in palestine, it's all good. If they want to leave, that's OK too.

Except Abbas and the leaders of the Palestinian Authority have consistently declared in both Arabic and English that there will be no Jews allowed to stay and live in a Palestinian state. So it's not quite OK.

The Israelis did essentially what you describe with Gaza. They left. They took their people and left the buildings, green houses, and farms to the citizens of Gaza and wished them peace and prosperity. Hamas had/has a different wish and since they had the guns and ordinary citizens (and PLO officials) didn't, what Hamas says goes. Hamas usually says things with guns and rockets. Hence blockades, banned items, etc.

Earning trust back on both sides to get to the point you want is going to be extremely difficult.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Someone earlier made a post about splitting this into 2 threads

1 - for discussion on the wider issues in Israel, Gaza & West Bank

2 - for actual news on what is happening


Good idea

Do people genuinely use CP as a source of news about global events? Wouldn’t it be easier to just use Google?

These are all far better sources to keep tabs on what’s going on in Israel:

BBC
Guardian
Reuters
DW News

[PsYcNeT]

One thing Goldstein seems to have gotten right, Likud sucks and Israeli's know it

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712440165317124234

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What's the source for that? Because that sounds unbelievable to me. Every statement I've seen from the PA or its leaders is demanding that food and medical supplies be allowed in to Gaza. Here's the Secretary General of the PLO:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1711795746268172312

What you quoted is a tweet regarding current full total blockade, which was established a week ago and which stated goal is to release hostages.

West Bank supported the original blockade, that is in place since 2006. The sources are in this post #995

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do people genuinely use CP as a source of news about global events? Wouldn’t it be easier to just use Google?

These are all far better sources to keep tabs on what’s going on in Israel:

BBC
Guardian
Reuters
DW News

Do people think that those on either side of this situation will come to an agreeable position through arguing on CP?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What's the source for that? Because that sounds unbelievable to me. Every statement I've seen from the PA or its leaders is demanding that food and medical supplies be allowed in to Gaza. Here's the Secretary General of the PLO:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1711795746268172312

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

One thing Goldstein seems to have gotten right, Likud sucks and Israeli's know it

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712440165317124234

Netanyahu is very unpopular, and he was so before this war.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Except Abbas and the leaders of the Palestinian Authority have consistently declared in both Arabic and English that there will be no Jews allowed to stay and live in a Palestinian state. So it's not quite OK.

The Israelis did essentially what you describe with Gaza. They left. They took their people and left the buildings, green houses, and farms to the citizens of Gaza and wished them peace and prosperity. Hamas had/has a different wish and since they had the guns and ordinary citizens (and PLO officials) didn't, what Hamas says goes. Hamas usually says things with guns and rockets. Hence blockades, banned items, etc.

Earning trust back on both sides to get to the point you want is going to be extremely difficult.

Eh... Abbas is an 85 year old senile idiot. He's well past his best before date.

He's also a politician that says things for many reasons. Mostly to gain an upper hand in negotiation.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Do people think that those on either side of this situation will come to an agreeable position through arguing on CP?

It may shock you, but yes. I know and understand Palestinians better now.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

What you quoted is a tweet regarding current full total blockade, which was established a week ago and which stated goal is to release hostages.

West Bank supported the original blockade, that is in place since 2006. The sources are in this post #995

Oh, OK. I misunderstood then.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

This Israel is open and inclusive?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/could-...n-lgbtq-haven/

If you are willing to go beyond the headlines, I'd say yes.

Israel is open and inclusive enough to have a homophobe politician and yet still hold at least 2 Gay Pride parades (if not 4, I'm not sure if there are parades in Eilat or Haifa).

Is Canada or the US any more or less inclusive because both countries have homophobe politicians (hello Sask.) and yet also have Gay Pride parades and free speech.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It may shock you, but yes. I know and understand Palestinians better now.

That great and kudos

But has it materially changed your viewpoint on the whole situation?

But looking at many posts you might be in the minority

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Except Abbas and the leaders of the Palestinian Authority have consistently declared in both Arabic and English that there will be no Jews allowed to stay and live in a Palestinian state. So it's not quite OK.


The Israelis did essentially what you describe with Gaza. They left. They took their people and left the buildings, green houses, and farms to the citizens of Gaza and wished them peace and prosperity. Hamas had/has a different wish and since they had the guns and ordinary citizens (and PLO officials) didn't, what Hamas says goes. Hamas usually says things with guns and rockets. Hence blockades, banned items, etc.


Earning trust back on both sides to get to the point you want is going to be extremely difficult.

Probably worth noting that’s not exactly how that went, as Israeli’s and Palestinians alike destroyed a lot of what was “left” as Israeli’s moved out and constant border closures for vague “security concerns” meant that only 10% of the agricultural exports could get out on any given day, which severely handicapped the industry.