Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

It should be painfully obvious what is antisemitic and what is not, because the same rules apply when you're talking about any other ethnic or religious group. If you are doing the following, you are probably being antisemitic:

1. Generalizing all Jewish and/or Israeli people.

Israel is likely the most diverse nation in the world, as the Jews there come from all over the world. If you are stating all Jews are motivated by X, you are probably being racist.

2. Denying the Jewish cultural, historical, and genetic ties to what is now Israel.

These are all proven facts. Not up for debate. Jews are motivated to move to Israel, because they have ties to Israel, not because they have some inherent need to steal other people's land for their own profit. And for most Jews in Israel the ties are more recent, because they were born there. The same reason you, despite not being indigenous, feel you have a right to live in Canada, except Canada wasn't full of history and artifacts linking your ancestors to Canada.

3. Denying the very real threats Israel has to deal with.

Villages full of dead and decapitated babies should make the nature of that threat painfully clear, but to some that's not enough.

It's pretty simple folks. If I were to say all Palestinians are terrorists who support Hamas that would be racist. There are no free passes when you discuss the Israeli side. The Israelis are not stand in for your own guilt about European colonization of the Americas. They are themselves a persecuted group.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

What you said is generally correct. Except that Jews are not removing anyone from their homes. You could argue that they did 80 years ago. But now they have an established state, with 20% of its population being Arabic, who are living in their homes. Now it's Palestinians, more precisely, their breakaway enclave of Gaza, is trying to remove Jews from their homes and destroy the state altogether. And they have no right for it. They will also be better off letting it go.

They regularly remove people from their homes, especially in the West Bank. What are you even talking about?

https://icahd.org/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/wor...s-in-jerusalem

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/...n-territories/

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Nm, no point in arguing with you. We know you don’t believe Jews should be allowed a state. No point in talking to you

Ethnostates of any kind are generally bad, actually.

Originally Posted by blankall

It should be painfully obvious what is antisemitic and what is not, because the same rules apply when you're talking about any other ethnic or religious group. If you are doing the following, you are probably being antisemitic:

1. Generalizing all Jewish and/or Israeli people.

Israel is likely the most diverse nation in the world, as the Jews there come from all over the world. If you are stating all Jews are motivated by X, you are probably being racist.

2. Denying the Jewish cultural, historical, and genetic ties to what is now Israel.

These are all proven facts. Not up for debate. Jews are motivated to move to Israel, because they have ties to Israel, not because they have some inherent need to steal other people's land for their own profit. And for most Jews in Israel the ties are more recent, because they were born there. The same reason you, despite not being indigenous, feel you have a right to live in Canada, except Canada wasn't full of history and artifacts linking your ancestors to Canada.

3. Denying the very real threats Israel has to deal with.

Villages full of dead and decapitated babies should make the nature of that threat painfully clear, but to some that's not enough.

It's pretty simple folks. If I were to say all Palestinians are terrorists who support Hamas that would be racist. There are no free passes when you discuss the Israeli side. The Israelis are not stand in for your own guilt about European colonization of the Americas. They are themselves a persecuted group.

I take it then that if we specifically say Zionists then it's okay, because to quote Propagandhi from 30 years ago

Originally Posted by Propagandhi "Haillie Sellasse, Up Your Ass" (1993)

An amalgamation of Jewish scripture
And christian thought
What will that get you, not a #### of a lot
Take a look at your promised land
Your deed is that gun in your hand
Mount Zion's a minefield

The West Bank
The Gaza Strip x4

Soon to be parking lots
For American tourists
And fascist cops, yeah

#### Zionism
#### militarism
#### Americanism
#### nationalism

#### religion x16

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Most of what I have read about the conflict has been on this site, some really good discussions here.

The conflict itself doesn’t seem a whole lot different than the discussions about the conflict, in terms of who is right and who is wrong.

There are valid points on both sides, and if one side thinks they have gained the upper hand in the discussion, the other side goes back a few more years in time to justify their position.

I don’t know what to say, other than I can’t see how there is any way the conflict is resolved. Ever.

That is an extremely sad take, especially coming from an optimist.

In a nutshell, the conflict is like this.

The land in question changed ownership many times and is currently settled by Jews. Palestinians were the previous population.

Jews say: let's accept what it is now, settle on current borders, live in peace and try to build up our countries.

Palestinians say: no, let's rollback the last change of ownership, it was unfair.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They regularly remove people from their homes, especially in the West Bank. What are you even talking about?

https://icahd.org/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/wor...s-in-jerusalem

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/...n-territories/

I'm talking about Gaza and Israel, as war between those two is the topic of the thread. West Bank is a different issue altogether. So much, that West Bank actually supports blockade of Gaza.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Ethnostates of any kind are generally bad, actually.

20 per of Israeli citizens today are Arabs.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

What you said is generally correct. Except that Jews are not removing anyone from their homes. You could argue that they did 80 years ago. But now they have an established state, with 20% of it's population being Arabic, who are living in their homes. Now it's Palestinians, more precisely, their breakaway enclave of Gaza, is trying to remove Jews from there homes and destroy the state altogether. And they have no right for it. They will also be better off letting it go.

No matter what Hamas' stated goals are, they are incapable of destroying Israel.

And to your second point. Yes, Israel still destroys homes in the West Bank.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releas...n_in_west_bank

As I said previously, Israel needs to just leave the Palestinians alone. I understand the attack on Gaza, I really do. But after Hamas is rooted out (which I have serious doubts it will happen), Israel needs to be like alright, security threat is eliminated, here's your land, leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I'm talking about Gaza and Israel, as war between those two is the topic of the thread. West Bank is a different issue altogether. So much, that West Bank actually supports blockade of Gaza.

No, sorry, you don’t get to exclude things that are very much relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because they don’t suit your argument.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

It should be painfully obvious what is antisemitic and what is not, because the same rules apply when you're talking about any other ethnic or religious group. If you are doing the following, you are probably being antisemitic:

1. Generalizing all Jewish and/or Israeli people.

Israel is likely the most diverse nation in the world, as the Jews there come from all over the world. If you are stating all Jews are motivated by X, you are probably being racist.

2. Denying the Jewish cultural, historical, and genetic ties to what is now Israel.

These are all proven facts. Not up for debate. Jews are motivated to move to Israel, because they have ties to Israel, not because they have some inherent need to steal other people's land for their own profit. And for most Jews in Israel the ties are more recent, because they were born there. The same reason you, despite not being indigenous, feel you have a right to live in Canada, except Canada wasn't full of history and artifacts linking your ancestors to Canada.

3. Denying the very real threats Israel has to deal with.

Villages full of dead and decapitated babies should make the nature of that threat painfully clear, but to some that's not enough.

It's pretty simple folks. If I were to say all Palestinians are terrorists who support Hamas that would be racist. There are no free passes when you discuss the Israeli side. The Israelis are not stand in for your own guilt about European colonization of the Americas. They are themselves a persecuted group.

4. Devoting far, far more energy to denouncing the Israeli oppression of Palestinians than any of the dozen or more countries in the world where violent ethnic or sectarian conflicts have been playing out for decades.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Most of what I have read about the conflict has been on this site, some really good discussions here.

The conflict itself doesn’t seem a whole lot different than the discussions about the conflict, in terms of who is right and who is wrong.

There are valid points on both sides, and if one side thinks they have gained the upper hand in the discussion, the other side goes back a few more years in time to justify their position.

I don’t know what to say, other than I can’t see how there is any way the conflict is resolved. Ever.

That is an extremely sad take, especially coming from an optimist.

It seems to me that both sides feel that if they do not fight as hard as they can, the other side will commit genocide.

We also know that only one side has the military and bureaucratic support to be able to.

I just hope that the political will for a Palestinian genocide doesn't materialize, but reading some of the takes here, and listening to jews I know refer to Palestinians as animals doesn't inspire confidence.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

4. Devoting far, far more energy to denouncing the Israeli oppression of Palestinians than any of the dozen or more countries in the world where violent ethnic or sectarian conflicts have been playing out for decades.

This is deflecting.

"I know Israel is bad, but what about what China or Russia is doing?"

People can care about all those things. Or people can care about one thing but not the other. This thread is discussing the war between Israel and Hamas. Would it be relevant to start taking about Ukraine or the uyghurs here?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Ethnostates of any kind are generally bad, actually.

So Arabs in Palestine/Israel shouldn't be entitled to a state, is that what you're saying?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

So Arabs in Palestine/Israel shouldn't be entitled to a state, is that what you're saying?

Honestly, no. They're not entitled to anything other than peace, security, freedom and dignity like every other human being on earth.

Whether that's as a part of Israel or a palestinian state. Who cares. Likewise, if the settlers feel comfortable staying in the West Bank as palestinian citizens with the same rights and duties and their arab neighbours then they're more than welcome.

States are just a set of borders containing the people living inside. The people inside need to find a way to get along. That's it, that's all.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No matter what Hamas' stated goals are, they are incapable of destroying Israel.

And to your second point. Yes, Israel still destroys homes in the West Bank.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releas...n_in_west_bank

As I said previously, Israel needs to just leave the Palestinians alone. I understand the attack on Gaza, I really do. But after Hamas is rooted out (which I have serious doubts it will happen), Israel needs to be like alright, security threat is eliminated, here's your land, leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.

Shouldn't you be hoping Hamas does get rooted out? If I was a Palestinian in Gaza I would be hoping that Hamas goes away and we can reset our governing party to reduce violence and increase the chances of the quality of life (getting water and electricity turned back on, reducing the threat of a missile destroying my home, etc.).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Honestly, no. They're not entitled to anything other than peace, security, freedom and dignity like every other human being on earth.

Whether that's as a part of Israel or a palestinian state. Who cares. Likewise, if the settlers feel comfortable staying in the West Bank as palestinian citizens with the same rights and duties and their arab neighbours then they're more than welcome.

States are just a set of borders containing the people living inside. The people inside need to find a way to get along. That's it, that's all.

Unfortunately, the Arab and Muslim nations have an absolutely abhorrent track record when it comes to treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. The Israelis aren't going to give up the nation they've fought for to go back to living like good little subjects of some Muslim theocracy.

Given recent events, I don't know how you can honestly expect Israelis to accept the idea that if they were to tear down their borders everyone would live in safety and harmony.

The point is the Arab "neighbours" are no longer in the position where they get to decide who is "welcome" and who is not.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, sorry, you don’t get to exclude things that are very much relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because they don’t suit your argument.

Not really. First of, Gaza-Israel conflict is complicated as it is. Second, there's West Bank - Gaza conflict on its own right. Third, lumping Gaza and West Bank together results in statements that are confusing. Like Israel having illegal settlements in "Palestinian lands". They don't have any settlements in Gaza. Israel doesn't even want to govern Gaza. Gaza is under blockade and at war with Israel. West Bank is not under blockade. It's not at war with Israel, although tensions are high. There are Israeli settlements there. West Bank is a different thing altogether and you only bring it in so you could criticize Israel.

The only legit reason to include West Bank into the debate is that if Hamas actions are some kind of revenge for perceived atrocities committed by Israel on West Bank. But this is not the case. In fact, Gaza and West Bank hate each other and had a civil war (Hamas - Fatah war). So bringing in how Israel is oppressing Palestinian population on West Bank only mislead people into believing that Gazans are suffering from the same and that's the reason why they are attacking Israel.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

4. Devoting far, far more energy to denouncing the Israeli oppression of Palestinians than any of the dozen or more countries in the world where violent ethnic or sectarian conflicts have been playing out for decades.

I don't think it's odd or unexpected that people would criticize a democratic ally that is heavily supported by the west for their oppression more than some random dictatorship.

It's really not a mystery why people in the US or Canada would be more invested in Israel/Palestine than say, the Rohingya conflict in Myanmar. And it's not because of anti-Semitism.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No matter what Hamas' stated goals are, they are incapable of destroying Israel.

And to your second point. Yes, Israel still destroys homes in the West Bank.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releas...n_in_west_bank

As I said previously, Israel needs to just leave the Palestinians alone. I understand the attack on Gaza, I really do. But after Hamas is rooted out (which I have serious doubts it will happen), Israel needs to be like alright, security threat is eliminated, here's your land, leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.

What I agree with is that once Hamas is rooted out, West Bank issues need to be solved. West Bank is a different issue altogether and many arguments that are valid for Gaza are not valid for West Bank. In fact the reason why this conflict appears so complex for outsiders is because Gaza and West Bank are lumped together. They should be dealt with separately.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Not really. First of, Gaza-Israel conflict is complicated as it is. Second, there's West Bank - Gaza conflict on its own right. Third, lumping Gaza and West Bank together results in statements that are confusing. Like Israel having illegal settlements in "Palestinian lands". They don't have any settlements in Gaza. Israel doesn't even want to govern Gaza. Gaza is under blockade and at war with Israel. West Bank is not under blockade. It's not at war with Israel, although tensions are high. There are Israeli settlements there. West Bank is a different thing altogether and you only bring it in so you could criticize Israel.

The only legit reason to include West Bank into the debate is that if Hamas actions are some kind of revenge for perceived atrocities committed by Israel on West Bank. But this is not the case. In fact, Gaza and West Bank hate each other and had a civil war (Hamas - Fatah war). So bringing in how Israel is oppressing Palestinian population on West Bank only mislead people into believing that Gazans are suffering from the same and that's the reason why they are attacking Israel.

That argument is also an attempt to apologize for and support Hamas' actions. We've already seen the argument that there are no settlements in Gaza, because of Hamas.

In reality, the Israelis withdrew all of their Gaza settlements unilaterally and prior to Hamas taking power in Gaza. They had no intention of ever putting more settlements in Gaza. Once Hamas started launching attacks from and taking over Gaza, Israel then began to isolate Gaza (not before).

So Hamas not only did not dissuade Israelis from settling in Gaza, they turned Gaza into the prison it is. They have accomplished nothing positive for their people.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Shouldn't you be hoping Hamas does get rooted out? If I was a Palestinian in Gaza I would be hoping that Hamas goes away and we can reset our governing party to reduce violence and increase the chances of the quality of life (getting water and electricity turned back on, reducing the threat of a missile destroying my home, etc.).

I don't like Hamas. If they're bombed to oblivion, but the same conditions remain, Hamas 2.0 will pop up.

So yeah, if you can remove hamas and elect someone like Barghouti, then that would be great. But Barghouti + blockade, siege, displacement, checkpoints, and settlements, then it's only going to be Barghoiti + Hamas 2.0.