Toronto Blue Jays - Offseason Thread

[JiriHrdina]

I don't fault the Jays here. You can't have your off season hinge on waiting on a player who has over estimated their value. You make your best offer and move on to contingency plans.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Well he got 20 million less in guaranteed money and 1 less year then the Jays initial offer. If his agent had countered with 4 years 85 million he would be a Jay and have 25 million more in his pocket in guaranteed $.

He stated all off season he wanted to return to the Jays. There were reports his agent basically had to explain to him the Jays were out and he needed to sign somewhere else.

Anyone who thinks this wasn't a total failure on Atkins part is fooling themselves. The only good part is we get a pick, which I still suspect was Atkins plan since day 1.

Then why didn't he sign when they offered him 4/80? If his goal was to return to the Jays, he would have signed with the Jays.

His goal (or his agents) was to sign a big contract. They misjudged the market and he is now making less than he could have.

[Senator Clay Davis]

As of now Encarnacion is only out $15 million from the Jays offer. And since he's a consistent producer, and since Cleveland has a good lineup where he'll probably keep producing well, I like his chances of getting that 4th year option picked up and thus ultimately not losing any money. So I don't think he'll ultimately lose any money, especially not with tax/cost of living considerations. He whiffed on getting a monster deal, but he still basically ends up with the backup deal.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by JTech780

I was also thinking that with the new CBA, guys with little to no term don't have much value, especially because KC isn't going to just hold out for the 1st round pick compensation anymore. I don't think they will get as much for him as you think. I wouldn't be surprised if they do hold on to him to the deadline, if they don't get what they are looking for this offseason.

I figure he would cost the Jays at minimum 2 of their top 10 prosepcts and probably even 2 of their top 5 given that their overal depth of their pool isn't great. Could be even more than that becuase I think lots of teams would be in on that type of deal given how shallow the FA pool in the OF is right now.

That doesn't make sense IMO for team that can't afford him past this season.

[ClubFlames]

Yes, it kinda sucks that EE signed with Cleveland but the Jays made a fair offer to him and he rejected it trying to get that $100MM deal which EE got burned on. I don't know how anyone can blame the Jays for letting him go and signing Morales. If we would have have just waited and and missed out on Morales, can't even imagine how much more the fans will be up in arms about it.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Anyone who thinks this wasn't a total failure on Atkins part is fooling themselves. The only good part is we get a pick, which I still suspect was Atkins plan since day 1.

So his agent left money on the table but this is a total failure on Atkins part? I'd be blaming the agent much more personally. He compeltely misread his client's market.

Atkins should be questioned for moving to Morales so quickly and I think that is fair. I personally don't agree with that train of thought but I do think its a fair question to ask. Morales IMO was a really good plan B and had they lose out on Morales AND lost out on EE well then just picture what this discussion would look like.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

As of now Encarnacion is only out $15 million from the Jays offer. And since he's a consistent producer, and since Cleveland has a good lineup where he'll probably keep producing well, I like his chances of getting that 4th year option picked up and thus ultimately not losing any money. So I don't think he'll ultimately lose any money, especially not with tax/cost of living considerations. He whiffed on getting a monster deal, but he still basically ends up with the backup deal.

I bet he ends up ahead. I don't understand what people are doing blaming the jays. Sure EE didn't get all he wanted but 20 per from the jays is less than 20 per from anyone else after taxes and cost of living. Jays have a decent offer, EE's agent overplayed this clients value a little bit, and he ends up with a similar deal after costs on a good team.

[REDVAN]

I think this will only pressures the Jays into re-signing Bautista.

[alan21]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

I think this will only pressures the Jays into re-signing Bautista.

They already went bargain shopping for Edwin's replacements, unless Jose can swallow his pride it's going to be hard to come to a reasonable offer for both sides.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't fault the Jays here. You can't have your off season hinge on waiting on a player who has over estimated their value. You make your best offer and move on to contingency plans.

I agree. Also, I think the Jays sensed they were negotiating against themselves so they just got the hell out of there.

It was a fair offer. Whether or not Morales is a good signing is a separate issue. They offered EE more than fair market value, they did it quickly, and they weren't dicking around.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I don't fault the Jays here.

Encarnacion overplayed his hand and refused a very good offer from the Jays, the Jays didn't want to get caught as a bridesmaid and moved on.

Sucks that a league rival gets stronger because of it but really the Jays did what they had to do.

[Jason14h]

Sucks that a league rival gets stronger because of it but really the Jays did what they had to do.

They didn't have to sign Morales. They made two wrong judgements,

1. They thought the Market for EE would be stronger, and figured their 4X20 offer wasn't going to be enough.
2. The market for DH's in general would be stronger and they would miss out on a hitter.

No DH's/DH type players have been signed yet apart from Morales.

The Jays misjudged the market as bad as EE's agent.

Do I blame the Jays for moving on? No, it makes business sense and they were hedging the risk of having no one.

But that doesn't change the fact it was a mistake, and the team is worst next season with Morales instead of EE.

[ClubFlames]

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/119...year-100m-deal

Encarnacion received a four-year, $80-million offer from the Blue Jays in November, but turned it down, only to counter with a four-year, $100-million contract, sources told Rick Westhead of TSN.

No wonder the Jays moved on.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They didn't have to sign Morales. They made two wrong judgements,

1. They thought the Market for EE would be stronger, and figured their 4X20 offer wasn't going to be enough.
2. The market for DH's in general would be stronger and they would miss out on a hitter.

No DH's/DH type players have been signed yet apart from Morales.

The Jays misjudged the market as bad as EE's agent.

Do I blame the Jays for moving on? No, it makes business sense and they were hedging the risk of having no one.

But that doesn't change the fact it was a mistake, and the team is worst next season with Morales instead of EE.

But the 4x20 literally wasn't enough. We all know that. For Toronto to have landed Ee they would have had to guess nobody else would bid that strong which is a big gamble. They could have ended up with nothing. Then all the experts with 20/20 hindsight would say the jays have blew all of free agency and got nothing. They hedged after EE said no and got morales. I don't know if he's a good sign or not, but playin EEs game out and waiting would have been a massive risk.

[greyshep]

I have a hard time believing that the Jays figured EE would have accepted the 4/80 early offer. To me it just feels like they made the offer in order to be able to say "hey we tried". As soon as he rejected they then moved on where they were likely headed all along....without EE.

Basically the early offer seems like nothing more than a PR exercise. If he accepted, great...but they were already in plan B mode even when they made the offer.

[cross16]

I'm not really following the logic here that people feel that the Jays didn't need to sign Morales. First off, we don't know how much competition there was for Morales and second who exaclty are these plethora of DH bats sitting on the market right now that the Jays should be signing?

I happen to think Morales was a head and shoulders Plan B so i understand why the Jays didn't want to let him go. I strongly prefer him to someone like a Napoli. Jays needed some balanced and I think people are underrated the switch hitting component of Morales.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I have a hard time believing that the Jays figured EE would have accepted the 4/80 early offer. To me it just feels like they made the offer in order to be able to say "hey we tried".

I don't. They moved quickly after he rejected it... that says to me that they wanted to get 1B/DH sorted out quickly in order to know how much they had to spend on other area's. Really when the "hey, we tried" offer ends up being the actual highest offer that was ever on a table it's not a "hey, we tried" offer.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I don't. They moved quickly after he rejected it... that says to me that they wanted to get 1B/DH sorted out quickly in order to know how much they had to spend on other area's. Really when the "hey, we tried" offer ends up being the actual highest offer that was ever on a table it's not a "hey, we tried" offer.

Yeah, that opinion just reeks to me of "I want to blame Rogers/Shatkins no matter what, so I will twist the facts to support my narrative regardless.."

..and so what if the Jays wanted to move on from EE and possibly even Bautista? If so, they must have their reasons, and certainly isn't because they are too cheap. They are apparently ready to go into the season with $165 million payroll. There are a #### ton of fans who wish their teams were that "cheap".

It would probably have more to do with wanting to alter the dynamic of the team more than anything. Not only for next season, but long term as well. If the Jays were to commit roughly $20 million on multi year deals to JB and EE, then two years from now they'd have $100 million + committed to 5 position players / batters who by then would be 35 (EE) 38 (JB) 35 (RM) 34 (TT) and 33 (JD) (This of course assumes an extension for JD in the neighborhood of $20 million per)

Not a great way to build a contending baseball team unless you want to rack up a $200 million payroll.

[Jason14h]

So we signed Morales who is 33 to a 3 year deal instead.

The two players have the same term. For 7 million a year more a season the upgrade from Morales to EE is immense.

7 million basically is the going rate for 1 WAR on the open market. I feel EE will provide a lot more then 1 win over Morales, or more then anything they can find for 7 mil (A left handed reliever I guess?)

[Roof-Daddy]

It's $9 million more for EE, and he's also got an option for a 4th year guaranteed at $5 million. So technically it's $21.6 million per year for three years, or $20 million per year for 4 years vs. $11 million per year for 3 years (Morales).

That's a pretty big difference.