I for one appreciate the fact that the mods try to keep this open because of the importance of this discussion.
I read a lot of other stuff online. Reddit, Twitter, news sites, etc. But CP is the only place where I come to discuss topics, and often to read what specific posters have to say.
That being said, it is sad to me how even killing babies doesn't change one's perspective.
But then again, even the Nazi's tried to hide the fact that they were exterminating Jews. Nowadays you can kill Jewish and other Israeli babies and people cheer for you in the streets of Canada.
Who are you taking to? Did you forget the quote button? Who’s the baby killing supporter that you are referring to?
I decided to educate myself on the matter of international laws and war crimes. I admit, before I didn't really have good understanding of it except for gut feeling of what is wrong thing to do on the battlefield. But when I went on to read Geneva conventions, it really reads like a set of rules of some Knight's tournament or something.
Yup.
(Incidentally the context of this is an argument for assassinating the leaders of terrorist groups which... I dunno if that's feasible, but...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsifree
This isn’t really unique to this situation. Many people cheered on the US while countless children and babies were victims of war-related aggression during the war on terror. Countless Palestinian children and babies have been killed as a direct result of Israeli responses and people cheer that on.
Which raises the question of whether there is a moral difference, or whether there should be a legal one (in terms of what gets you sent to the hague) between:
a) A military decision to fire a rocket at an apartment building because you have credible info that there are terrorists who attacked your country in there, despite either not knowing whether there are children in there or even being confident that there are and that those children will die; and
b) Deliberately targeting and murdering children as an end in itself, using hand-held weapons, as has been credibly alleged has happened repeatedly in the past week.
I do see a difference between those two things despite the fact that they both result in dead babies because I think the intention matters - others may disagree. Regardless, murdering babies for the sake of murdering babies is not a new thing in situations like this one, where an armed, semi-organized group of militants is attacking another group that they hate en masse largely on the basis of their identity - Rwanda is the obvious example, but here's another one. There's no real reason to suspect that anyone would need to make this sort of thing up - it's horrifying and yet not even terribly surprising given the context.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
In truth the only real solution at this point is the absolute and total defeat, along with catastrophic loss of life and complete removal of the population of one side or the other, either Israel ceases to exist or Gaza.
That's not going to happen.
I also have serious doubts that Israel is capable of defeating Hamas to be quite honest. Whether it's this war, or every other war against Hamas or Hezbollah, that has always been Israel's stated goal. Then they walk it back, say they achieved their objective a few weeks later and move on.
The short term solution? There is none for the next few weeks. Once both sides have killed enough of their enemies, the medium term solution is for israel to end the siege in Gaza and hand over the occupation to a neutral party like UAE, Turkey or Jordan. End all settlement activity, full stop. Dismantle some of the smaller settlements and exchange land in israel in exchange for the larger settlements.
I'm sure Turkey or UAE wouldn't want to occupy the westbank and gaza for long so the understanding is that they, along with the international community, help build palestine into a viable, independent country. Yes, when all is said and done, that includes full sovereignty over their entire territory and airspace and full military force. An arab country with a peace treaty with israel does not pose a security risk to Israel. This notion that a militarized palestine can't be trusted is bogus.
In the longer term, I would think that a friendly palestine and israel will become integrated economically, with open borders and opportunities for all citizens on both sides of the borders. At that point, maybe there could be an agreement that would allow palestinians to reside in Israel, close to their ancestral lands and for israelis in the West Bank, close to their holy sites.
I also have serious doubts that Israel is capable of defeating Hamas to be quite honest. Whether it's this war, or every other war against Hamas or Hezbollah, that has always been Israel's stated goal. Then they walk it back, say they achieved their objective a few weeks later and move on.
The short term solution? There is none for the next few weeks. Once both sides have killed enough of their enemies, the medium term solution is for israel to end the siege in Gaza and hand over the occupation to a neutral party like UAE, Turkey or Jordan. End all settlement activity, full stop. Dismantle some of the smaller settlements and exchange land in israel in exchange for the larger settlements.
I'm sure Turkey or UAE wouldn't want to occupy the westbank and gaza for long so the understanding is that they, along with the international community, help build palestine into a viable, independent country. Yes, when all is said and done, that includes full sovereignty over their entire territory and airspace and full military force. An arab country with a peace treaty with israel does not pose a security risk to Israel. This notion that a militarized palestine can't be trusted is bogus.
In the longer term, I would think that a friendly palestine and israel will become integrated economically, with open borders and opportunities for all citizens on both sides of the borders. At that point, maybe there could be an agreement that would allow palestinians to reside in Israel, close to their ancestral lands and for israelis in the West Bank, close to their holy sites.
It is happening and has been since '49, the only question is how fast it happens
I don't know if you are of Arab decent, if you are then you should know better, the rest of the Arab world looks down on Palestinians like they are hillbilly scum, always have long before Israel was founded, Palestinians were always at the bottom of the barrel in the Arab world, no connection to any of the great houses, the Mamelukes or Abbasids, no connection to the Prophet, just peasant goat herders no Arab country is going to lift a finger to help them unless it is in their interest domestically
I find the fact that Hamas slaughtered babies horrific, but I am confused why people don't think Isreali bombing isn't killing babies?
Or even US bombing Bagdad, no babies were killed then?
I think it is Telal Asad who wrote an article on the subjective ways the west moralizes killing. Beheading people is somehow worse than blowing them up at a distance.
One is collateral damage, the other is barbaric savagery.
- A pilot who drops a bomb that kills a child has to live with himself the rest of his life.
- A person who cuts the head off a child should have a short life.
It is happening and has been since '49, the only question is how fast it happens
I don't know if you are of Arab decent, if you are then you should know better, the rest of the Arab world looks down on Palestinians like they are hillbilly scum, always have long before Israel was founded, Palestinians were always at the bottom of the barrel in the Arab world, no connection to any of the great houses, the Mamelukes or Abbasids, no connection to the Prophet, just peasant goat herders no Arab country is going to lift a finger to help them unless it is in their interest domestically
I am Palestinian and this is just so wrong. I really don't understand where this garbage came from. My God.
The reports about babies being killed has not been confirmed, several high ranking Israeli military officials say they have no reports about it. This is from the network that originally reported it.
Stuart Ramsay interviewed two IDF majors - one of whom was a spokesman.
Ramsay said: "At no point did either he, or the other major I spoke to, ever mention that Hamas had beheaded or killed 40 babies or children. I believe that if it were the case, they would have told me and others there.
I am Palestinian and this is just so wrong. I really don't understand where this garbage came from. My God.
I grew up with Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis in London, trust me you dont want to know how they referred to Palestinians, it wasn't nice, I'm not saying by the way I held that opinion myself, it was just my experience that the Arab world is highly stratified, the Persians thought all Arabs were ill educated Peasants beneath contempt, the Syrians Egyptians and Iraqis looked down on the Saudis and Bedu, and they all looked down on the Palestinians and half of Jordan
The reports about babies being killed has not been confirmed, several high ranking Israeli military officials say they have no reports about it.
The story you just linked to has the following IDF quote: "We cannot confirm any numbers. What happened in Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a massacre in which women, children and toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."
Here's another quote from Reuters' reporting: "Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden," Israeli Major General Itai Veruv said on Tuesday, the seasoned soldier visibly shaken as troops went door-to-door to collect the bodies of residents killed in their homes."
and more from BBC:
Quote:
The Israeli army, caught off guard, took 12 hours to get to the kibbutz, said Davidi Ben Zion, the deputy commander of Unit 71[...] Mr Ben Zion said Hamas gunmen who killed families, including babies, were "just a jihad machine to kill everybody, [people] without weapons, without nothing, just normal citizens that want to take their breakfast and that's all [...] They killed them and cut some of their heads, it's a dreadful thing to see… and we must remember who is the enemy, and what our mission is, [for] justice where there is a right side and all the world needs to be behind us."
Another officer pointed to a bloodied purple sleeping bag. A swollen toe poked out. He said the woman underneath had been killed and decapitated in her front garden. I did not ask the officer to move the sleeping bag to inspect her body.
... So why are you saying the IDF hasn't confirmed that it happened?
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 10-11-2023 at 01:56 PM.
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I grew up with Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis in London, trust me you dont want to know how they referred to Palestinians, it wasn't nice, I'm not saying by the way I held that opinion myself, it was just my experience that the Arab world is highly stratified, the Persians thought all Arabs were ill educated Peasants beneath contempt, the Syrians Egyptians and Iraqis looked down on the Saudis and Bedu, and they all looked down on the Palestinians and half of Jordan
The story you just linked to has the following IDF quote: "We cannot confirm any numbers. What happened in Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a massacre in which women, children and toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."
Here's another quote from Reuters' reporting: "Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden," Israeli Major General Itai Veruv said on Tuesday, the seasoned soldier visibly shaken as troops went door-to-door to collect the bodies of residents killed in their homes."
... So why are you saying the IDF hasn't confirmed that it happened?
Does it really matter? When you can shoot RPGs at a bunch of kids at a music festival you are pretty much capable of anything.
__________________ Peter12 "I'm no Trump fan but he is smarter than most if not everyone in this thread. ”
I find the fact that Hamas slaughtered babies horrific, but I am confused why people don't think Isreali bombing isn't killing babies?
Or even US bombing Bagdad, no babies were killed then?
I think it is Telal Asad who wrote an article on the subjective ways the west moralizes killing. Beheading people is somehow worse than blowing them up at a distance.
The difference is that Hamas is intentionally killing babies.
Israel drops bombs, and kills babies, but would avoid it if they could.
There is no double standard IMO. If the IDF had crossed the border into Gaza and came upon a rave, they woudn't have kidnapped, raped, and executed all the young women they could get their hands on.
Hamas did exactly that - regardless of if they were Jewish or not. That's what happens when your "army" is raised in a society that represses women and teaches them that non-muslim women are sub-human.
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Does it really matter? When you can shoot RPGs at a bunch of kids at a music festival you are pretty much capable of anything.
It matters if people are trying to claim that brutal murders of children didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way that is being reported. It seemed like that was what WCW Nitro was suggesting - that there were no actual credible reports of the murders of children:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCW Nitro
The reports about babies being killed has not been confirmed
... And I'd like to know why he thinks that or what his reason for thinking that is, in light of the myriad reports to the contrary, including from the actual soldiers who saw the decapitated and mutilated corpses themselves.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
The story you just linked to has the following IDF quote: "We cannot confirm any numbers. What happened in Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a massacre in which women, children and toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."
Here's another quote from Reuters' reporting: "Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden," Israeli Major General Itai Veruv said on Tuesday, the seasoned soldier visibly shaken as troops went door-to-door to collect the bodies of residents killed in their homes."
... So why are you saying the IDF hasn't confirmed that it happened?
The IDF invited a bunch of international journalists to see first hand what happened in Kfar Aza, I've seen 2 video's so far and even with them blurred out I don't care to see any more.
Maybe, my mates dad from Damascus thought all Saudis did indecent things to camels and goats, weirdly Turks never came into the conversation in the 70's as they weren't even thought of as Muslim then
I'm sorry for your situation right now, not meaning to take a shot, it must be as horrific and scary for you as it is for our Israeli posters today and for that I hope for nothing but the best for you and your family
As-salamu alaykum, I admit I am pessimistic but I hope it for the world not just you
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcw nitro
the reports about babies being killed has not been confirmed, several high ranking israeli military officials say they have no reports about it. This is from the network that originally reported it.
stuart ramsay interviewed two idf majors - one of whom was a spokesman.
Ramsay said: "at no point did either he, or the other major i spoke to, ever mention that hamas had beheaded or killed 40 babies or children. I believe that if it were the case, they would have told me and others there.
The difference is that Hamas is intentionally killing babies.
Israel drops bombs, and kills babies, but would avoid it if they could.
There is no double standard IMO. If the IDF had crossed the border into Gaza and came upon a rave, they woudn't have kidnapped, raped, and executed all the young women they could get their hands on.
Hamas did exactly that - regardless of if they were Jewish or not. That's what happens when your "army" is raised in a society that represses women and teaches them that non-muslim women are sub-human.
Completely untrue, Israel just targets civilians including kids in a "nicer way". They have bombed the crossing from Gaza to Egypt three times in the past two days so people can't leave and they blocked all supplies going into Gaza so people starve. And they are not even being particularly subtle about it from the comments of several Israeli officials
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Maybe, my mates dad from Damascus thought all Saudis did indecent things to camels and goats, weirdly Turks never came into the conversation in the 70's as they weren't even thought of as Muslim then
Yeah like I said, I've experienced the complete opposite. I lived in the UAE and Qatar as a kid. I traveled throughout the middle east later as an adult. I've never had to hide that I'm Palestinian. I've experience hugs and hand shakes in Egypt and Syria when they find out I'm palestinian. I had a customs official in Jordan saying "welcome home my brother.". I've had a random mechanic in Lebanon invite me to their house for coffee.
Even in Canada, my best friend is Iranian. I used to hang out with turks, lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, other Palestinians, Christians, Muslims and jews.
With that said, there is a "thing" between gulf arabs like Saudis and levantine arabs. But I always felt like it was a money and no culture vs culture and no money thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
I'm sorry for your situation right now, not meaning to take a shot, it must be as horrific and scary for you as it is for our Israeli posters today and for that I hope for nothing but the best for you and your family
As-salamu alaykum, I admit I am pessimistic but I hope it for the world not just you
Thanks I appreciate it.
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Completely untrue, Israel just targets civilians including kids in a "nicer way". They have bombed the crossing from Gaza to Egypt three times in the past two days so people can't leave and they blocked all supplies going into Gaza so people starve. And they are not even being particularly subtle about it from the comments of several Israeli officials
Firstly, Egypt has already closed the crossings into Egypt:
Israel's initial stance was, indeed, that Palestinians should flee to Egypt. They backed off after Egypt gave a hard no.
Israel also didn't directly bomb the crossing, they've been bombing smuggling tunnels around the crossing, as that's how Hamas gets all of their weapons. So strikes on the area are likely to continue indefinitely. A moot point, as the border is fully shut, as per Egyptian orders.
As Hamas positions itself within civilian centers, what other solution does Israel have to stop them? As for whether Israel targets civilians, if that were the case the death tole in Gaza would be in the tens of thousands, not hundreds.
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