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[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Druh Farrell is the most sanctimonious Councillor on city council. It's not so much how she works for her ward that irk me so much as much as she acts sometimes like an activist as opposed to taking positions that represent her ward but are also workable for people in other parts of the city.

Bow flow festival as an example. She had to dig in and insist that it must be Memorial Drive that shut down for her festival celebrating 'Human powered transportation' as opposed to Riverfront Drive that would have more than accommodated the expected festival goer's and serve the stated purpose of the festival. That tells me that the festival wasn't so much about being a festival in its own right as much as it was about shutting down a major road and causing delays (for people who were less likely to live in Druh's ward) to send a political message about bike lanes and pedestrian walk ways.

and yet people willingly accept shutting down 4th street for Lilac festival. Or shutting down part of memorial for a marathon. Or Downtown for various parades...

I just don't see why Bow Flow is any different than any other event street closure.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Why are we picking on Druh for the fluoride issue? Does Druh hold veto power in Council? How did the vote turn out?

Maybe we should start yelling at other council members as part of a merry band of idiots. And perhaps we should look at why said band all voted in favor.

Someone asked how anyone could possibly dislike Druh and got an answer.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

and yet people willingly accept shutting down 4th street for Lilac festival. Or shutting down part of memorial for a marathon. Or Downtown for various parades...

I just don't see why Bow Flow is any different than any other event street closure.

Because Bow Flow wasn't really a festival at first. It started out as an idea to just shut down traffic and let pedestrians and bikes use the space.

They didn't even let food trucks in.

Now if you want to shut down traffic 17th ave would be a good one to shut down every Sunday in the summer or Kensington road

[You Need a Thneed]

I don't understand Bow River Flow hate. Every festival/event has to start somewhere. City administrators have to look into proposed road closures. They would have reviewed whether it affected traffic to an adverse amount.

The majority of traffic on Memorial was probably people driving by to check out how bad traffic was, thereby making the traffic themselves.

Farrel didn't plan it, it as advocating for it. Essentially, people hated it just because Farrell's name was attached to it. There are lots of road closures for various reasons all the time that no one ever complains about.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I don't understand Bow River Flow hate. Every festival/event has to start somewhere. City administrators have to look into proposed road closures. They would have reviewed whether it affected traffic to an adverse amount.

The majority of traffic on Memorial was probably people driving by to check out how bad traffic was, thereby making the traffic themselves.

Farrel didn't plan it, it as advocating for it. Essentially, people hated it just because Farrell's name was attached to it. There are lots of road closures for various reasons all the time that no one ever complains about.

But it wasn't a festival. It was an opportunity for other forms of transportation to use the road. The festival came later. It was an underwear gnome project.

Step 1) stop traffic
step 2) ???
Step 3) profit

I'd even support in general lots of streets closing to traffic on weekends. Memorial though doesn't make sense. It has parks and twinned pathways most of the way.

People complain about all road closures. Look at the Calgary Marathon people complained about that including human interest pieces on missing funerals. In general people complain about road closures but understand when it has a purpose. When the purpose is to close the road people don't. She became the face of a stupid idea.

I'm not even saying she was wrong to support it but when you are the face of stupid ideas you will get to be disliked.

While googling it I found the old Calgary puck thread on it
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=78357

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

and yet people willingly accept shutting down 4th street for Lilac festival. Or shutting down part of memorial for a marathon. Or Downtown for various parades...

I just don't see why Bow Flow is any different than any other event street closure.

4th street, 17th ave & 10th street in Kensington for the salsa festival made sense because there were plenty of small businesses along those streets that benefited from having a foot traffic only event that attracted Calgarians from all parts of the city.

Memorial drive? Could you even name any businesses along Memorial Drive that would benefit from foot traffic?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Great for her ward (even at that she's not overly popular as it seems the reason she keeps her post is that the majority of voters are "anybody but Druh" voters that split their votes on other candidates enough for her to win by small margins). Not so great for the city to which latte-sipping urbanists are a minority.

So here's the thing: the latte sipping urbanists, while they may be a minority, are the people who are working for the long-term financial stability of the city by opposing subsidized sprawl. The whole city benefits from that far more than it does from the pseudo-populist developer shills that the suburban majority sometimes elects.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

So here's the thing: the latte sipping urbanists, while they may be a minority, are the people who are working for the long-term financial stability of the city by opposing subsidized sprawl. The whole city benefits from that far more than it does from the pseudo-populist developer shills that the suburban majority sometimes elects.

Except that many of them cause the sprawl.

Many live in 50 ft lots, oppose basement suites, and try to restrict height on developments. In many cases the people residing in SFHs in the inner city are a larger contributor to sprawl then us yop gobblers.

The location of where you live does not define your contribution to sprawl. The amount of land you occupy does. So a Condo dweller anywhere in the city has a lower impact on sprawl than anyone who Ives in an SFH.

[wireframe]

Originally Posted by Pizza

4th street, 17th ave & 10th street in Kensington for the salsa festival made sense because there were plenty of small businesses along those streets that benefited from having a foot traffic only event that attracted Calgarians from all parts of the city.

Memorial drive? Could you even name any businesses along Memorial Drive that would benefit from foot traffic?

You think that a festival only counts if it's commercialized? Bow river flow is a festival to me because it's creating a space for neighbors to gather and do their own thing. The lilac festival is also a festival, but of a different type where every inch of street has someone trying to sell you something.

It just doesn't seem like a big deal to me to close a road for a few hours of the weekend with plenty of notice. So long as people are using it for whatever kind of festival they want.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by GGG

Except that many of them cause the sprawl.

Many live in 50 ft lots, oppose basement suites, and try to restrict height on developments. In many cases the people residing in SFHs in the inner city are a larger contributor to sprawl then us yop gobblers.

The location of where you live does not define your contribution to sprawl. The amount of land you occupy does. So a Condo dweller anywhere in the city has a lower impact on sprawl than anyone who Ives in an SFH.

These are very good points, just because of where some of us live doesn't mean the fight is over to keep the city building in a sustainable direction. Heck our community association still digs in on a lot of new projects that are bringing more density to the area. I think the key is to get a mix of all housing types into a community, choice and price points for all.

[Fuzz]

Calgarians have the longest memory for the most petty stuff. Still complaining about a 2 hour road closure on a Sunday 5 years ago? Really? And lets not forget the Peace Bridge, they have bridges already! Why do we need another one! A blue ring that cost each Calgarian, like, 50 cents. I'm really looking forward to hearing about the Bowfort Towers for the next decade. Is this really the worst stuff that council has done? It's minor details, rounding errors in the budget. I blame Rick Bell and people like Corey Morgan. Let it go, man.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by GGG

Except that many of them cause the sprawl.

Many live in 50 ft lots, oppose basement suites, and try to restrict height on developments. In many cases the people residing in SFHs in the inner city are a larger contributor to sprawl then us yop gobblers.

The location of where you live does not define your contribution to sprawl. The amount of land you occupy does. So a Condo dweller anywhere in the city has a lower impact on sprawl than anyone who Ives in an SFH.

wait, what?!

urbanist 'cause' sprawl?! that's a new one

I don't think you know what the definition of urban sprawl is if you think folks living in downtown neighborhoods that have been around since the 1940s are 'causing' sprawl

Basements suites is hardly an issue, unless the normal reaction of someone not being able to find a basement suite in Mission is to go out to Auburn Bay and buy a house...

the definition of sprawl is not how much land you own - its uncontrolled expansion of an city's urban/suburban footprint...

your argument is akin to saying someone that buys jeans from value village is contributing to unfair labor practices in Bangladesh as much as someone buying new jeans from Walmart.

that doesn't mean people living out in the burbs don't care about the impact of sprawl; i am sure many do... but that idea the people living in the core are responsible for sprawl is laughable
.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Calgarians have the longest memory for the most petty stuff. Still complaining about a 2 hour road closure on a Sunday 5 years ago? Really? And lets not forget the Peace Bridge, they have bridges already! Why do we need another one! A blue ring that cost each Calgarian, like, 50 cents. I'm really looking forward to hearing about the Bowfort Towers for the next decade. Is this really the worst stuff that council has done? It's minor details, rounding errors in the budget. I blame Rick Bell and people like Corey Morgan. Let it go, man.

Cory Morgon actually liked the Bow Flow.

I'm going to disagree with you on remembering petty things. It's important.

The Peace Bridge because of the lack of tendering
The fluoride in the water supply
The Blue ring and Bowfort towers
Closing down memorial for day without a purpose when 17th would have made way more sense

All these are reminders of government failing in public ridiculous ways. When decisions like this are repeated in points to systems not working in government and these systems should be being reviewed and fixed. For example the Bowfort towers after the blue ring show the changes to the Art policy weren't effective. They need to add that the art can be placed in a public space near the project site rather than in the project site.

Floride in the water reminds us that the provincial government should have better minimum standards and we should elect people who listen to science.

The peace bridge that proper rendering should be done for all projects

Learning lessons from previous mistakes is important and the more ridiculous the decision the better flag it is for remembering not to do it in the future.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

wait, what?!

urbanist 'cause' sprawl?! that's a new one

I don't think you know what the definition of urban sprawl is if you think folks living in downtown neighborhoods that have been around since the 1940s are 'causing' sprawl

Basements suites is hardly an issue, unless the normal reaction of someone not being able to find a basement suite in Mission is to go out to Auburn Bay and buy a house...

the definition of sprawl is not how much land you own - its uncontrolled expansion of an city's urban/suburban footprint...

your argument is akin to saying someone that buys jeans from value village is contributing to unfair labor practices in Bangladesh as much as someone buying new jeans from Walmart.

And the uncontrolled expansion of a city outward is driven by ......

Population growth and a refusal to densify existing space (and creating transportation infrastructure to reach the burbs). But without densification all anti sprawl policies do is increase housing cost.

Does a person moving into the city have the same right to be in the city as a person who lived here since the 1940s. I say yes they do.

So we have a two options to fit these people into the city we can increase the density or we can build out.

So anyone opposing increases in density is a direct contributor to sprawl.

A person living in the inner city on a 50x150 lot is occupying 7500 soft of space. A person living on the "postage stamp" 35 x 100 lot in the burbs is taking up 3500 sqft of space. Therefore the person in the large lot has twice the contribution to the size of the city as the yon gobbler.

Everyone whether currently living in a home or new to the city can make a choice of where to live. For example if the person on the inner city lot moved to Auburn bay and allowed a developer to bulldoze and build a 4 plex. Their decision would actually reduce sprawl in the city.

Density is the measure of Sprawl. Part of taxation should be based on the sqft of land you own rather than just the value.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by GGG

And the uncontrolled expansion of a city outward is driven by ......

Population growth and a refusal to densify existing space (and creating transportation infrastructure to reach the burbs). But without densification all anti sprawl policies do is increase housing cost.

Does a person moving into the city have the same right to be in the city as a person who lived here since the 1940s. I say yes they do.

So we have a two options to fit these people into the city we can increase the density or we can build out.

So anyone opposing increases in density is a direct contributor to sprawl.

A person living in the inner city on a 50x150 lot is occupying 7500 soft of space. A person living on the "postage stamp" 35 x 100 lot in the burbs is taking up 3500 sqft of space. Therefore the person in the large lot has twice the contribution to the size of the city as the yon gobbler.

Everyone whether currently living in a home or new to the city can make a choice of where to live. For example if the person on the inner city lot moved to Auburn bay and allowed a developer to bulldoze and build a 4 plex. Their decision would actually reduce sprawl in the city.

Density is the measure of Sprawl. Part of taxation should be based on the sqft of land you own rather than just the value.

outward expansion is NOT driven by inner city residents... that's like saying someone living out in Lake Sundance is driving Auburn Bay development.

Places like the beltline are more dense than your suburbs. Places like the west end and east village are virtually all condo buildings...Garrison Woods and Bridgeland are all highly developed. University City. The latter three are all developments in established communities that are trying to reduce sprawl.

Any inner city neighborhood has more density that most suburbs for that matter. And i guarantee you that most of the basement suites you talk about happen in inner city neighborhoods because the typical residents of such suites are students or young professionals.

Urban sprawl is the uncontrolled migration of people to the peripheral neighborhoods sprouting up outside of the city - inner city residents are not responsible for that at all.

Neighborhoods built in the 40s and 50s do not contribute to urban sprawl...

There's tons of development going on in these neighborhoods; just drive through areas like Bridgeland or Marda Loop...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Why are we picking on Druh for the fluoride issue? Does Druh hold veto power in Council? How did the vote turn out?

Maybe we should start yelling at other council members as part of a merry band of idiots. And perhaps we should look at why said band all voted in favor.

Interesting concept here. "It's not fair to blame one person for being stupid because other people were also stupid."

Except, it is.

[GGG]

Sprawl is an issue of cost and density

Most people would like to live closer to the inner city if they could live in an SFH there. So what you are saying is that a person with the means to live in an SFH in the inner city does not cause sprawl and a person who only can afford an SFH in the burbs causes sprawl.

This is just economic prejudice.

If you choose to live in an SFH you are a cause of Sprawl. If you make a choice to live in a denser dwelling regardless of location you aren't.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GGG

A person living in the inner city on a 50x150 lot is occupying 7500 soft of space.

Except there is not, say, 3-5 people (family unit) living in 7500 sq/ft of space, it's more like 30-50 people. Therefore, the per capita space used it far more efficient.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I don't understand Bow River Flow hate. Every festival/event has to start somewhere. City administrators have to look into proposed road closures. They would have reviewed whether it affected traffic to an adverse amount.

The majority of traffic on Memorial was probably people driving by to check out how bad traffic was, thereby making the traffic themselves.

Farrel didn't plan it, it as advocating for it. Essentially, people hated it just because Farrell's name was attached to it. There are lots of road closures for various reasons all the time that no one ever complains about.

Farrell didn't plan anything. Her original idea was to just shut down Memorial Drive every Sunday throughout the summer. And she offered so little justification for it that one was left believing that the goal was basically to extend a giant middle finger to commuters who use the road and, by extension, local residents - her own constituents. When she found that public reaction was so negative she pared it back to just one day. But she never had a plan or idea of what to do. She just wanted to power trip her way into closing down a major road.

I'll give the organizers of the Bow River Flow a small amount of credit, as they tried to make something useful out of that turd of an idea, but the festival was doomed from the start because Farrell's short-sighted idiocy had already poisoned the city against anything that might have been done.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Except there is not, say, 3-5 people (family unit) living in 7500 sq/ft of space, it's more like 30-50 people. Therefore, the per capita space used it far more efficient.

I don't think you read anything I wrote as I was comparing SFH to SFH and Condo to Condo and saying your personal density (area / number of people on your lot) is your contribution to sprawl and not your location.


http://www.smartergrowth.ca/economic...your-community

If you want to see how historical poor development has contributed to Sprawl look a the above map. Any new community rivals all but the densest of inner city. For example Arbour Lake has higher density than West hilhurst.

Elbow Park is half as dense as the burbs.