[Signing] Flyers sign Brayden Schenn to 4 year deal ($5.125 mil AAV)

[gt4flames]

This thread reminds me of a dick sizing contest on HF...

But onto the topic at hand...

Schenn has been a favourite player of mine for a while, I'm happy to see him coming out of his shell finally. This is a good deal for the flyers, i think schenn is going to really start to come into his own starting with the last half of last season.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Honestly, I havnt even looked at his numbers. I've always viewed him as underwhelming.. but nothing to substantiate it tbqh.. perhaps just the Schenn reputation, largely created by his brother and perhaps more so the Toronto media/fans/discussions of Luke being a plug.. an overpayed plug at that... I guess I seen him as schenn plug v2.0.

But looking at his numbers, my opinion has been far off.

Using the Lucic comparison for numbers and $$ is actually quite close. Sure two totally different styles, size and what they bring to the table but.. a helluva lot closer than Monny.

One thing CP has taught me, even though I'm the more knowledgeable hockey fan in my circle.. in the CP circle, there's a learning opportunity.

Some people do need to realize this about themselves as well.

One thing I learned early on. You may have a fast car, but there will always be faster. You maybe a good driver, but there will always be better. Constantly trying to prove fate wrong in these cases will lead to an accident. Check your pride, you're not better than anyone.. it's what I'm living my life by..

Over the last 3 seasons Schenn has quietly (for us western focused fans) put up almost the same points as Monahan Monahan edges him out 159 to 147.

[Huntingwhale]

This thread is hilarious. I'd love for some random Flyers fan to wander over here to read about his favourite player in Schenn and come across this discussion and to leave very confused.

Epic troll job by Ricardodw . One of the best I've ever seen on CP.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Over the last 3 seasons Schenn has quietly (for us western focused fans) put up almost the same points as Monahan Monahan edges him out 159 to 147.

Noticed that. Had no idea. Quite surprised actually.

That said, Monahan has been doing it since year 1 in the NHL as a 19 year old?

I think this is where most people have a problem with the comparison is that Schenn broke into the league in 2011. He spent the majority of his first 2 years trying to stick in the NHL, sent to the Phantoms twice for further development.

I stand corrected in terms of his current contract, but Monahan has shown he has had it right from the get go.

That alone could be the difference between a $5m contract and a $6.5 m contract.

But Schenn is still behind Giroux for that top line C spot. They may be heading into a 1a, 1b Center situation.

[devo22]

People really have to stop assuming that Schenn is a center. He has been playing at left wing for a couple of years now.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Over the last 3 seasons Schenn has quietly (for us western focused fans) put up almost the same points as Monahan Monahan edges him out 159 to 147.

Over the last three seasons include Monahan's rookie season directly being drafted...which you're now comparing to Schenn's 22 year old season.

And again, he's done so while playing with Giroux and Voracek/Simmonds.

2014, especially, was very favourable for Schenn. He played nearly entirely with Giroux and Voracek. Giroux and Voracek put up point-per-game numbers, Schenn put up 47.

A case could be made that Monahan benefited from playing with Gaudreau and Hudler the same year, but he still put up 30+ goals and 62 points.

Schenn is a good complimentary player. A player who evidently can play on the top line and not kill the play. But he's not the straw that stirs the drink. If he's a top line player, he's going to be the "third player" on that line on most teams in the NHL. He's probably closer to a good second line winger. Monahan is developing, if not developed, into a solid first line center. The comparable is pretty flat.

[IgiTang]

Jiri, tried to PM you. Says you aren't accepting PM's. I would like to reply to you privately about your post.

There's a reason I havnt reported a post and it's due to me being threatened to be banned if I report a post again because I called a certain mod out for contributing to bullying a poster the other week.

I'll keep names private and such, but my pm inbox has the whole convo in it if you are able to have a look.

[JiriHrdina]

Yeah for some reason I can't accept PMs. We don't know why. I have it set to receive PMs and have room in the inbox - but it just doesn't work.
You can PM me if you want at Wild GM (which I use for the CPHL) or the general moderator account - whatever you are more comfortable with.

[ricardodw]

Not wanting to add gasoline to the fire but the age difference and potential between Schenn and Monahan has been vastly over stated

Players who have had their career years as 21 year olds:

Ovechkin
Crosby
Hall
Eberle
Toews
Evander Kane (only 20 but 3rd year)
Tyler Myers (19 years old)
Zach Bogosian

Teemu Selanne had his career year as a 22 year old rookie.

List of good/great players but none of added 1 more point then they put up as a 21 year old never mind adding the 25% more points that we expect from Monahan. If Monahan gets a 6x6 or 6x8 he is getting paid as an 80 pt player.

The Jets are not paying Scheifele 6.15x8 to be a 61 pt player.... They fully expect him to be a 80 pt player.


Common occurrence with the list of carreer best 21 year olds is they all got 30M contracts coming out of their ELC.

Frolik had his career high in pts and goals as a 20 year old closely followed by his 21 year old season. At the time he would have seemed destined to be at least a 60pt player.

There are a lot of guys that take more time to get going and actually hit their peaks at 27-30 all well The Sedins did not have a good seasons until they were 24. They were playing on a 1 yr 1.25M deals as 24 year old when they got their first 70+ pt season ... previous high was 42/54 pts.

If you just looked at Frolik and the Sedin's body of work to age 21 you might jump to the conclusion that Frolik would be the HOF at the end of his career
.

[Vinny01]

You lost 8 players that had a career year at 21 or very close to it. Anyone could list hi dreads of players that had career years after 21. Once again simply baffling and horrible logic by Ricardo

[JiriHrdina]

I think there are a couple of flaws with that analysis
- You can't pinpoint career season on points alone. Many players become better overall players as their career advance, even if their offensive totals aren't as high
- Younger players often receive more favorable matchups

So I don't think you can look at it - on the basis of point totals alone.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Not wanting to add gasoline to the fire but the age difference and potential between Schenn and Monahan has been vastly over stated

Players who have had their career years as 21 year olds:

Ovechkin
Crosby
Hall
Eberle
Toews

That's all well and good, but you're still using Monahan's 19 year old season directly after being drafted when he put up 34 points in your comparison over the last three years. I don't think Monahan is that 34 point player.

Monahan repeated his success after playing with Hudler and Gaudreau to playing Gaudreau and whatever scrub was on his other wing. That was a good indicator that he's a "60 point player" at minimum, seeing as he's done it twice.

Schenn didn't quite put up 60 points despite playing with Giroux and Simmonds who both did. There's the chance that this was his career year, playing with two very good players. As you're somewhat arguing, it's not often that players improve their numbers as 24 year olds, but Schenn did. If he reverts back to that 20-25-45 player he had been for the previous three years, then the contract doesn't look so hot.

[TheScorpion]

I agree with Hrdina on this. However, ricardo, your post certainly doesn’t have "horrible logic". I understand what you're saying: Schenn could break out and hit his peak from ages 27-30.

Good post.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think there are a couple of flaws with that analysis
- You can't pinpoint career season on points alone. Many players become better overall players as their career advance, even if their offensive totals aren't as high
- Younge players often receive more favorable matchups


So I don't think you can look at it - on the basis of point totals alone.

Has Monahan benefited from better match-ups? Scheifele? Who were Hall and Eberle hiding behind in Edmonton?


Is there a way that the Flames will be successful with Monahan on a 6.15x8 contract and putting up 60 pts a year? Is there a way that you see him becoming a dominate shut down guy that dominates the other teams best players.


Which of the guys in my list do you see as better player than they were at 21? Keep in mind that Crosby and Ovechkin were the best players in the league as 21 year olds..... Did they get better?

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Has Monahan benefited from better match-ups? Scheifele? Who were Hall and Eberle hiding behind in Edmonton?


Is there a way that the Flames will be successful with Monahan on a 6.15x8 contract and putting up 60 pts a year? Is there a way that you see him becoming a dominate shut down guy that dominates the other teams best players.


Which of the guys in my list do you see as better player than they were at 21? Keep in mind that Crosby and Ovechkin were the best players in the league as 21 year olds..... Did they get better?

At his peak, I can see Sean Monahan consistently putting up 70-point seasons while playing solid two-way hockey. He'll look like a better-scoring Patrice Bergeron.

[SuperMatt18]

One way to look at it is career year - but one thing clouding it for some of those guys is that the first couple years out of the lockout were much higher scoring, and scoring overall again.

Another way to look at it is to look at the age of the NHL scoring leaders over the last 6 years - since that will normalize for the shift to lower scoring overall in the league.

Malkin: 109 Pts - Age 25
Kane: 106 Pts - Age 27
Crosby: 104 Pts - Age 26
D.Sedin: 104 Pts - Age 29
St.Louis: 99 Pts - Age 35
Perry: 98 Pts - Age 25
Stamkos: 97 Pts - Age 21
H.Sedin: 94 Pts - Age 29
Giroux: 93 pts - Age 23
Benn: 89 Pts - Age 26
Getzlaf: 87 Pts - Age 28
Tavares: 86 Pts - Age 23
Iginla: 86 Pts - Age 33
Ovechkin: 85 Pts - Age 24
Spezza: 84 Pts - Age 28
Seguin: 84 Pts - Age 21

A couple of guys hit the top scoring charts at 21 - but for the most part the top scorers in the league fall in that 23-29 age range. Which tend to be the top producing years in the NHL for a forward.

Both the Flames and Flyers will be paying their respective players for those core years on their next contracts - which will drive the price up.

Monahan could top out as a 60 pt forward but that likely still gets him a contract in the 6 year x $6M range.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

That's all well and good, but you're still using Monahan's 19 year old season directly after being drafted when he put up 34 points in your comparison over the last three years. I don't think Monahan is that 34 point player.

Monahan repeated his success after playing with Hudler and Gaudreau to playing Gaudreau and whatever scrub was on his other wing. That was a good indicator that he's a "60 point player" at minimum, seeing as he's done it twice.

Schenn didn't quite put up 60 points despite playing with Giroux and Simmonds who both did. There's the chance that this was his career year, playing with two very good players. As you're somewhat arguing, it's not often that players improve their numbers as 24 year olds, but Schenn did. If he reverts back to that 20-25-45 player he had been for the previous three years, then the contract doesn't look so hot.

How many of Monahan's 60 pts came from playing with Gaudreau? Before Gaudreau he was a 34 pt guy.


In Monahan's best year he was 3rd in scoring behind Hudler and Gaudreau.

Totally agree that if Schenn falls back to 40-45 pts like he was for 2 seasons where he was playing on the Briere and then Lecavalier lines where they were well past their primes and he outscored them then he will be over paid.

If he stays at 60pt he will be fairly paid.

If he moves up to 70-80 pts he will be a bargain, value contract.

At 40-45 pts he would be overpaid by the 600k he is getting more than Brouwer, who has been signed as a 40-45 pts 200 hit player.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

At 40-45 pts he would be overpaid by the 600k he is getting more than Brouwer, who has been signed as a 40-45 pts 200 hit player.

Maybe I am missing your point.

What was the Flames acquisition cost in acquiring Brouwer?

There is a huge difference between UFAs and RFAs. Acquisition cost!

Would you be content if the Flames traded Monahan ( at , let's say, 6.0 - 6.3 AAV) for Schenn ( 5.125 AAV) and had not signed Brouwer?

Interesting, if you are.

I certainly wouldn't be happy.

The reason being that the Flames are far worse on the ice.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by timbit

Maybe I am missing your point.

What was the Flames acquisition cost in acquiring Brouwer?

There is a huge difference between UFAs and RFAs. Acquisition cost!

Would you be content if the Flames traded Monahan ( at , let's say, 6.0 - 6.3 AAV) for Schenn ( 5.125 AAV) and had not signed Brouwer?

Interesting, if you are.

I certainly wouldn't be happy.

The reason being that the Flames are far worse on the ice.

Nor would most fans. Let's see what the point totals are when Monny is 24, about to turn 25 next month. He has 4 years of NHL experience over Monny and is still behind in points over the last 3 years.

If youre comparing apples to oranges, the apples being Monny, and the oranges being Schenn, than the oranges are nowhere near as tasty as the apples.

Schenn is entering the prime of his career. This contract is likely going to be his best. Monny on the other hand, will still have some prime years remaining when (if this deal gets done this century) he turns 28.

The new NHL contracts are about paying for the future. Schenn is who he is at this point.

Monny has potential to grow well beyond what he is in terms of production or at the very least, maintain this pace well beyond Schenn's decline.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

... Monny ... Monny ... Monny ...

Awful.