You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? Now with 3x more gears...

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why should they be treated differently? Why aren’t both “rehab” programs or both “benefits”. I think there could be a reasonable argument made for when you can’t do all of your job your job is to stay home and recover and also a reasonable argument that we should increase the amount of time acceptable to do most but not all of your job.

But to hold the position that injuries need modified duties but sickness needs full time off makes no sense.

At best I can see it from the labour argument if that’s what the contract says so that’s how we do things but that isn’t a good way to form an opinion. So if you were redesigning a workers comp program would you advocate for modified duties or recover from home. Or if you were designing a sick leave program would you change anything from the pre-Covid come to work unless you are bed ridden philosophy that Jayswin appears to be advocating.

How would you improve the system?

Improve what system?

You’re suggesting people should give up the benefit of not having to work while they’re off sick and trying to use the existence of modified duties for WCB cases as a reason when they’re two completely separate issues. Modified duties are only possible when you have a doctor signing off on them due to liabilities, it would be an administrative nightmare for both the employer and employees to have to set up and attend doctors appointments, pay for the modified duties paperwork to be filled out, get the documentation back to their employer and have this all completed with enough time for the employee to still be able to work that day.

Even if it were hypothetically possible to get doctors appointments on demand, the bottom line is that you’re still suggesting employees give up their sick time for no benefit to them. Makes plenty of sense for employers but zero sense for employees.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Improve what system?

You’re suggesting people should give up the benefit of not having to work while they’re off sick and trying to use the existence of modified duties for WCB cases as a reason when they’re two completely separate issues. Modified duties are only possible when you have a doctor signing off on them due to liabilities, it would be an administrative nightmare for both the employer and employees to have to set up and attend doctors appointments, pay for the modified duties paperwork to be filled out, get the documentation back to their employer and have this all completed with enough time for the employee to still be able to work that day.

Even if it were hypothetically possible to get doctors appointments on demand, the bottom line is that you’re still suggesting employees give up their sick time for no benefit to them. Makes plenty of sense for employers but zero sense for employees.

Yes, you could add a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy to the system.

Or people could be grownups. If you're too sick to work, rest and recover. If you're well enough to work but could be a bit contagious or you have a sick kid, work from home as best you can.

I'm self employed, so if I don't work I dont earn any money. So far I haven't had to have a doctor fill out any forms to decide whether I'm well enough to work or not. It turns out common sense works for that quite well.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Yes, you could add a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy to the system.

Or people could be grownups. If you're too sick to work, rest and recover. If you're well enough to work but could be a bit contagious or you have a sick kid, work from home as best you can.

I'm self employed, so if I don't work I dont earn any money. So far I haven't had to have a doctor fill out any forms to decide whether I'm well enough to work or not. It turns out common sense works for that quite well.

I'm in a similar position - self employed and essentially run a global sales team. There is zero expectation for how the job gets done and everyone is 100% on eat what you kill. A pure meritocracy. Somehow it works.

It's quite jarring to read some of these posts.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by you&me

I'm in a similar position - self employed and essentially run a global sales team. There is zero expectation for how the job gets done and everyone is 100% on eat what you kill. A pure meritocracy. Somehow it works.

It's quite jarring to read some of these posts.

Would you even go so far as to say coffee is for closers?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

You guys have jobs?

By not working at all, I don’t ever have to worry about where I’m working from. Also, I can drive into the core at odd hours for my coffee to avoid traffic.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Yes, you could add a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy to the system.

Or people could be grownups. If you're too sick to work, rest and recover. If you're well enough to work but could be a bit contagious or you have a sick kid, work from home as best you can.

I'm self employed, so if I don't work I dont earn any money. So far I haven't had to have a doctor fill out any forms to decide whether I'm well enough to work or not. It turns out common sense works for that quite well.

Originally Posted by you&me

I'm in a similar position - self employed and essentially run a global sales team. There is zero expectation for how the job gets done and everyone is 100% on eat what you kill. A pure meritocracy. Somehow it works.

It's quite jarring to read some of these posts.

If you both willingly choose to work in a capacity that doesn’t offer you the benefit of paid time off due to illness that’s all well and good, that’s your choice. However it doesn’t mean that other people who do currently have that benefit should be forced to do the same.

Your arguments seem to stem from a position of jealousy, somehow I doubt that either of you would argue that an employee should also be paid more just because someone else is.

I doubt you’d be preaching about how wonderful your definition of meritocracy without sick leave is after you’ve been affected by a major health issues that is out of your control.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You guys have jobs?

By not working at all, I don’t ever have to worry about where I’m working from. Also, I can drive into the core at odd hours for my coffee to avoid traffic.

You're the guy in the +15 asking for spare change for a coffee aren't you.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

You're the guy in the +15 asking for spare change for a coffee aren't you.

No. That coffee is for closers

[Cecil Terwilliger]

If coffee is code for meth, then yes that is me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by you&me

I'm in a similar position - self employed and essentially run a global sales team. There is zero expectation for how the job gets done and everyone is 100% on eat what you kill. A pure meritocracy. Somehow it works.

It's quite jarring to read some of these posts.

I run my own business, too, but I also like to take care of my people. People are going to have bad days, bad weeks and even bad years where they need more support. I always do my best to help where I can.

One lady's husband is in the hospital after a bad fall in December...he'll be there and then in rehab for months, so she's the only one earning an income for their family right now. I bonus them out in October after my September 30 year end, but just yesterday I offered to bonus her right now.

Like, if somebody on your team gets sick or has a family emergency where they need extended time off and can't look after their professional responsibilities, do you take care of them? I view that as a responsibility of a business owner. Or is that not your problem?

Idk. I know you can't save everyone and at the end of the day you have your own problems. You can also be such a nice guy that you fata over your business, which obviously doesn't help anyone, but there is some space in between those two extremes to support your staff. Especially if you are financially able, which I get the sense you are.

I guess I'm aware I make the most money in my company because I do think I need to be mindful of my investment of capital, time, effort, etc. - if it's not paying off that's unfair to my family, but I try to fight the inclination to scoop as much as I can for myself off the backs of my staff. Plus, say in the example of the lady going through a difficult time, she has given me many good years of work from which I have profited that I'm happy to help her with basically unlimited flexibility to go to appointments (while on the clock) for her husband just to help keep her sane.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying here. What posts are jarring? Maybe you agree with me? Maybe you've had a charmed life where tragedy hasn't struck, so you can't relate to how fast a life can get turned upside down? Like, the family of four I started out with is down to just me and my mom, and she currently has stage 4b cancer and she's taking a lot of my time and it's quite stressful. When there is an illness in the family or death and you're the only one there to handle things, you can't be giving it 100% at work. I realize this for myself, but I also realize it for my staff. I could never look at them and say 'you only eat what you kill'. How do you look at yourself in the mirror of your luxury car with that outlook?

Again, I'm not sure if I understood you so I'm not saying any of the above with any malice. Maybe just trying to understand your view better.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I run my own business, too, but I also like to take care of my people. People are going to have bad days, bad weeks and even bad years where they need more support. I always do my best to help where I can.

One lady's husband is in the hospital after a bad fall in December...he'll be there and then in rehab for months, so she's the only one earning an income for their family right now. I bonus them out in October after my September 30 year end, but just yesterday I offered to bonus her right now.

Like, if somebody on your team gets sick or has a family emergency where they need extended time off and can't look after their professional responsibilities, do you take care of them? I view that as a responsibility of a business owner. Or is that not your problem?

Idk. I know you can't save everyone and at the end of the day you have your own problems. You can also be such a nice guy that you fata over your business, which obviously doesn't help anyone, but there is some space in between those two extremes to support your staff. Especially if you are financially able, which I get the sense you are.

I guess I'm aware I make the most money in my company because I do think I need to be mindful of my investment of capital, time, effort, etc. - if it's not paying off that's unfair to my family, but I try to fight the inclination to scoop as much as I can for myself off the backs of my staff. Plus, say in the example of the lady going through a difficult time, she has given me many good years of work from which I have profited that I'm happy to help her with basically unlimited flexibility to go to appointments (while on the clock) for her husband just to help keep her sane.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying here. What posts are jarring? Maybe you agree with me? Maybe you've had a charmed life where tragedy hasn't struck, so you can't relate to how fast a life can get turned upside down? Like, the family of four I started out with is down to just me and my mom, and she currently has stage 4b cancer and she's taking a lot of my time and it's quite stressful. When there is an illness in the family or death and you're the only one there to handle things, you can't be giving it 100% at work. I realize this for myself, but I also realize it for my staff. I could never look at them and say 'you only eat what you kill'. How do you look at yourself in the mirror of your luxury car with that outlook?

Again, I'm not sure if I understood you so I'm not saying any of the above with any malice. Maybe just trying to understand your view better.

I meant exactly what I said. I've never had a conventional job or been an employee, so to hear what people have to deal with in the 'normal' corporate world and job market is jarring.

Regarding my business, again, it's exactly as I said. There are no numbers, or sales targets. Some guys answer calls 24-7 (though it is a global business, so that can just be the nature sometimes); some guys stick to local office hours and return calls/emails the next day; some guys take extended breaks or vacations... There is very little structure and the only expectation is that you somehow bring in business... The who, what, when, where, why and how is up to the individual and like I said, somehow it works.

I realize this puts me in an extremely privileged position and I should have done more to acknowledge that in my first post. The main point I was trying to make was to acknowledge Bizaro's points about "people could be grownups" and "common sense works for that quite well"... The jarring bit is that's not the case more commonly in many work environments.

You've posted a lot on here about how you run your business and I commend you for being an excellent boss with your employees interests at heart... Sounds like a great place to work.

[DoubleF]

A job interview is like dating a company. Working for a company or a client is a business relationship.

Not specific to anyone, but if some of you would be upset at getting unsolicited advice on what's wrong with your relationship with your significant other or family and you don't feel you have an issue with your significant other or family... don't be surprised when people get annoyed and significant push back when there's unsolicited advice on what's wrong with someone's relationship with work when they don't think they have an issue with their relationship with work.

[TheIronMaiden]

[TorqueDog]

I don't want people to work when they're sick.

Working when you're sick, tired, etc. is a great way to forget to put a ) somewhere in your code and then wonder why the formula keeps returning wildly different output than you'd anticipated.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If you both willingly choose to work in a capacity that doesn’t offer you the benefit of paid time off due to illness that’s all well and good, that’s your choice. However it doesn’t mean that other people who do currently have that benefit should be forced to do the same.

Your arguments seem to stem from a position of jealousy, somehow I doubt that either of you would argue that an employee should also be paid more just because someone else is.

I doubt you’d be preaching about how wonderful your definition of meritocracy without sick leave is after you’ve been affected by a major health issues that is out of your control.

Nobody is saying there shouldn't be sick leave.

I just like Sliver's version where people get what they need more than a bureaucratic "you get xx days of sick time that you're entitled to". I worked for a big company for a number of years and worked from home if only a bit sick, which I think is totally reasonable. I also took off 3 weeks in a row when I got H1N1 during that pandemic and nobody gave me a hard time. I think flexibility, common sense, and reasonableness are way better guides to appropriate behaviour than a codified list of rules and procedures.

That's how you end up with something like this: https://www.boredpanda.com/ceo-asks-...mpaign=organic

[81MC]

You know weird feeling when critical discussions about critical things are taking place between people who have zero ####ing insight into the situation? I swear

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I think some of the debate here with regards to WFH, working while your sick, answering some emails with a cold/sore throat at the office etc was part of the whole problem in some ways with Covid and lockdowns.

There was an entire segment of society who was WFH in a lot of ways, with some of the pro's and the con's associated with that while a lot of people who couldn't WFH, just did it. Kept the economy running so to speak.

The real question for some of the debate that may swing people's answer to WFH while sick/sickish is who's actually footing the bill? If your a salaried employee and have sick days and your not losing income as a result, than I get it. Rest up, stay home, come back when your feeling better, work if you can/want etc.

Does the same line of thinking with WFH while sick apply if you were to take your calculated hourly rate and hypothetically get paid for a few hours with some emails, calls, spreadsheets, projects, presentations etc?

We are all adults and we've all been sick before, it can suck, and suck bad. Sometimes it's ok to admit were taking advantage of our sick days even though we can probably make it through the day. Sometimes your bed ridden and some days it's sniffles, a cough and some aches and pains. Sometimes people go on about their day as a day off while sick and not working.

Some people these days make it seem like typing on a computer and filling out paperwork with a minor cold is like being on the Ukrainian front lines. Relax! Just remember, nothing is actually free in this world, someone is paying the bill. People's attitude usually changes when its costing them money. It's ok to admit that.

You're/your

then/than

You got "their" right at least.

Pretty good effort posting while having a cold.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I don't want people to work when they're sick.

Working when you're sick, tired, etc. is a great way to forget to put a ) somewhere in your code and then wonder why the formula keeps returning wildly different output than you'd anticipated.

Even when I'm 110% and at the top of my game I struggle with stupid syntax issues.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Throat infections ####ing suck. It feels like there's a golf ball lodged in the back of my throat, it's throbbing in pain that radiates to my left ear and eyeball, and the act of swallowing makes my whole body shudder in pain. The antibiotic pills I have are a mixed blessing, as I know they should help fix me, but it hurts so bad trying to get them down

[CroFlames]

That's strep, brother.