Calgary schools

[GGG]

Back to the school topics I think something that is important to point out is that the schools are designed for the life cycle of a community not the peak capacity of a community.

So the building is designed for the long term load of students that the neighbourhood will produce. Then you add portable units to get the school to meet most of the short term needs, then you bus out students to under utilized schools to cut off the peak demand.

This philosophy is far more efficient then building big schools for peak capacity of a neighbourhood. If people don't check into the capacity issues of their elementary schools before they buy that is their fault. I like the current system and do think these facility less schools are a good idea to soften out the peaks where necessary.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

I've been saying this for ages here - someone (ie the City - Bunk?) should put together an interactive map so that when you click on a neighborhood it shows:

- What are the current feeder schools (Pub/Sep)
- At the schools at capacity? If so, where are they being bus'ed to?
- Schools, Projected date of school completion
- Nearest Firehalls / Police station - date of completion if planned for.
- Nearest Pool/Arena/Rec Center - date of completion if planned for.
- Nearest Library - date of completion if planned for.

This would be invaluable to so many people while house hunting - I've known so many people that bought that didn't really research the above before buying. I'd like to think those areas with none of the above would be less attractive to buyers and the market would vote with their feet, forcing developers to pony up for the above.

You would think that this would be the role you hire your realtor for.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by The Goon

To be fair, these are all second-hand from other parents, but things I've heard:

-overcrowded classes
-not getting in the closest school
-incessant fundraising
-communication from teachers poor
-facilities: libraries, gyms, cafeterias having to be turned into classes (this is more from someone ranting online)

And when I look at the numbers, sending my kid to the Calgary French and International School (our closest private school) is cheaper than his current daycare costs.

I understand that I'm buying into a lot of the negativity that I see, but I want to explore everything before accepting a "good enough" scenario for my kid's education. That's why I asked the question here - to gauge if things are that bad or if it's overblown.

outside of overcrowded classrooms and lack of classrooms I think you will face many of the same issues in a private school.

Fundraising at private schools might be worse
The private schools are even more scattered around the city
Teachers are no better
And the best ones are wait listed.

Not to mention if your child has any kind of behavioural or learning disability they will not be allowed in or removed from the school as the private school needs to keep its marks up to justify its existence.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by GGG

outside of overcrowded classrooms and lack of classrooms I think you will face many of the same issues in a private school.

Fundraising at private schools might be worse
The private schools are even more scattered around the city
Teachers are no better
And the best ones are wait listed.

Not to mention if your child has any kind of behavioural or learning disability they will not be allowed in or removed from the school as the private school needs to keep its marks up to justify its existence.

Except you know, Rundle or Calgary Academy which are geared towards children with disabilities.


We are currently debating on the private v. public school option and have basically narrowed it down to four schools. It's a big decision that's being weighing heavily on my mind. Private schools come with their own issues and can be somewhat insular so it makes me nervous to send him to one.

Our designated public schools are small so that's not a huge issue for us.

[Regulator75]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

We moved to an expensive area of the city

Not so humble brag.

[taco.vidal]

There was article in the G&M this weekend about a situation in Toronto similar to what you described that is happening in your neighbourhood.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20714740/

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

We moved to an expensive area of the city and the school in our zone is at capacity. There appears to be no elementary school planned at any time for the west end of the city. They are basically leaving us no choice but to spend 10k to 20k annually for school.

We lucked out and won the lottery to get in the school, but those that didn't are bused to one of the worst schools in the city.

The worst part of this 'backup' school? The more expensive part of the area is bused to a highly rated school past my house, while my side of the area is bused past their houses to a worse school. There is clear corruption involved to have school buses driving opposite and longer directions.

[Table 5]

How would everyone feel if these neighborhoods raised property taxes to pay for more/better schools? Would you be willing to pay 1k more/year if it meant a more stable school situation for the kids in that community?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Table 5

How would everyone feel if these neighborhoods raised property taxes to pay for more/better schools? Would you be willing to pay 1k more/year if it meant a more stable school situation for the kids in that community?

As long as people without children can opt out.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Table 5

How would everyone feel if these neighborhoods raised property taxes to pay for more/better schools? Would you be willing to pay 1k more/year if it meant a more stable school situation for the kids in that community?

I would object to this as someone who could afford it and has kids who would likely benefit. Putting two tiers into public education has negative side effects. It's a great way to create ghettos, and has the potential to deepen the cycle of poverty as children in poor areas get lower quality educations.

[puffnstuff]

We lucked out with our kids school. While the community was 30+ years old there was no elementary school until about 10 years a go...right when we moved in. It didnt have a gym or a library when it opened, but it had a big hallway that they used for both. Our oldest still enjoys a good game of full contact library hallway basketball. They expanded the school to include the gym and library and more classrooms after a couple of years.
One thing that has always bothered me about building schools is that they want/need? to make them all different. The design costs to make each unique seems a waste. Tims and McD's etc all look the same...so can schools. Save some money there.
The minischools are a stop gap thats needed in some communities, just a reality right now, and better they go to a local school than be bused imo.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Fire

As long as people without children can opt out.

Well I guess that depends on what your opinions are about the greater good and how much responsibility we all share in having a prosperous society. Should I subsidize seniors if I'm not one myself? Should I pay into that new interchange if I don't drive? Should my taxes support a community rink if I don't play hockey? Chances are at some point in your life you benefit more than you put in, and vice versa. At one point when you were in school, someone was subsidizing your education too, just like are subsidizing the next generation now.

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I would object to this as someone who could afford it and has kids who would likely benefit. Putting two tiers into public education has negative side effects. It's a great way to create ghettos, and has the potential to deepen the cycle of poverty as children in poor areas get lower quality educations.

What if it was an across the board increase to fund education (not a set rate, but percentage based)? Calgary, compared to a lot of other cities in Canada and the USA, has really low property taxes...and lower taxes tend to mean lower levels of service. Would people support higher taxes if it meant that we'd have a better education system and a better educated society? An educated population tends to be a great investment for a country, as in the end produce more tax income than those with lower education levels.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Table 5

What if it was an across the board increase to fund education (not a set rate, but percentage based)? Calgary, compared to a lot of other cities in Canada and the USA, has really low property taxes...and lower taxes tend to mean lower levels of service. Would people support higher taxes if it meant that we'd have a better education system and a better educated society? An educated population tends to be a great investment for a country, as in the end produce more tax income than those with lower education levels.

I wouldn't have a big issue with increasing property taxes to fund better education, but I strongly object to any two tiering of public education. Some US metros have that problem, where some of their suburbs have better education systems, which makes those suburbs more desirable. It also has the effect of keeping the poor in lower quality school systems, and depriving those school systems of tax dollars as the wealthy/educated parts of society advocate for their children in their school system.

There will always be private schools, but to add a second public tier feels like a step too far, imo. (And I say that as someone who would support a private option for healthcare).

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Table 5

What if it was an across the board increase to fund education (not a set rate, but percentage based)? Calgary, compared to a lot of other cities in Canada and the USA, has really low property taxes...and lower taxes tend to mean lower levels of service. Would people support higher taxes if it meant that we'd have a better education system and a better educated society? An educated population tends to be a great investment for a country, as in the end produce more tax income than those with lower education levels.

I'm all for a better public education system but I'm certainly not in favour of throwing more money into the system with the hopes that things will improve. I believe there are currently too many inefficiencies with capital management and more money will just compound the problem. Public systems always become far to bloated and wasteful.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I'm all for a better public education system but I'm certainly not in favour of throwing more money into the system with the hopes that things will improve. I believe there are currently too many inefficiencies with capital management and more money will just compound the problem. Public systems always become far to bloated and wasteful.

If some of the issues are:

• more schools needed (costs money)
• more teachers needed for those new schools (costs money)
• support staff for the new schools (costs money)

How do you suggest those issues get resolved without more money.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If some of the issues are:

• more schools needed (costs money)
• more teachers needed for those new schools (costs money)
• support staff for the new schools (costs money)

How do you suggest those issues get resolved without more money.

Maybe the board could have had some extra money for those items if they hadn't gone ahead with the deal to build and lease a new office building. The planned $30-something Million project ballooned to almost $300 Million by the time it was completed. They are apparently paying well above market value for rent in that new building. They sold the old office for significantly less than what had been expected.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Maybe the board could have had some extra money for those items if they hadn't gone ahead with the deal to build and lease a new office building. The planned $30-something Million project ballooned to almost $300 Million by the time it was completed. They are apparently paying well above market value for rent in that new building. They sold the old office for significantly less than what had been expected.

Do you have a link/source?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Do you have a link/source?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...916/story.html

[calgarygeologist]

Another contentious and likely poor spending decision is the restoration effort at the Elbow Park school post-flood. That project has been estimated at $16.5 Million and I wouldn't be surprised if the end cost is significantly more. I love old, heritage buildings and I am supporter in attempting to keep them but this seems like a really bad move. A better plan would have included building a new school but re-using and reclaiming as much as possible (ie. the extensive use of wood in the library, the historic bricks, etc.)

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Another contentious and likely poor spending decision is the restoration effort at the Elbow Park school post-flood. That project has been estimated at $16.5 Million and I wouldn't be surprised if the end cost is significantly more. I love old, heritage buildings and I am supporter in attempting to keep them but this seems like a really bad move. A better plan would have included building a new school but re-using and reclaiming as much as possible (ie. the extensive use of wood in the library, the historic bricks, etc.)

The very best plan here would have been to not rebuild the school and move the kids to the other underutilized schools in the area. Total cost ~0, or maybe the cost of adding a few portables.

But we can't let things like efficiency and logic get in the way of pandering to wealthy neighbourhoods and politics now can we.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The very best plan here would have been to not rebuild the school and move the kids to the other underutilized schools in the area. Total cost ~0, or maybe the cost of adding a few portables.

But we can't let things like efficiency and logic get in the way of pandering to wealthy neighbourhoods and politics now can we.

The kids were moved to an under-utilized school (in fact it was a vacant school.) The relocated students were moved to Eugene Coste which apparently was a 12 minute bus ride from the old school. In addition to that relocation new facilities (portables and a gym) were constructed at the near by Earl Grey School. It was a complete and utter failure of cost control and project management. The cost of the Earl Grey portables and gym was over $5 Million (from what I last saw.)