Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread

[Daradon]

^^^ I have too. And I agree, for some reason that mindset is so prevalent down there, and quite alien to most of the rest of the first world.

[nickerjones]

There isn't one that would appease anyone in this thread.. I stated it a long time ago. Why bother? I believe last time I talked about the way I viewed things I was told I was brought up wrong.

I gave you everything I got . I'm not sure what else there is to argue here ? I agree with everyone on assault rifles but don't see how any other measure ( such as banning handguns etc) would amount to anything other than just criminals being in possession of handguns.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

There isn't one that would appease anyone in this thread.. I stated it a long time ago. Why bother? I believe last time I talked about the way I viewed things I was told I was brought up wrong.

I gave you everything I got . I'm not sure what else there is to argue here ? I agree with everyone on assault rifles but don't see how any other measure ( such as banning handguns etc) would amount to anything other than just criminals being in possession of handguns.

It's simple math really and doesn't even involve the metric system.

more guns = more gun deaths, crimes, injuries, shootings, etc. etc. etc. not less.

[Daradon]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't think anyone is suggesting banning all guns. Handguns aren't banned here. Just that there does need to be more steps and restrictions to buying, owning, and using guns.

The story is so one sided in the states right now. The NRA has made it illegal for the ATF to do any enforcement on the F. Stores aren't required to keep track of stock. Studies into gun violence are routinely quashed. And the smallest little step in that direction gets met with a bunch of craziness and anger.

No one is suggesting banning all guns. No one is suggesting taking away any guns. People are just amazed by the level of gun crime and gun related stories in the news, and the attitudes that go along in defending them. And wondering why there can't be any even slight move on the issue, when the problem is getting bigger by the day.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

It's simple math really and doesn't even involve the metric system.

more guns = more gun deaths, crimes, injuries, shootings, etc. etc. etc. not less.

That's good but that really means nothing. If there were less people there would also be less of all those. If there were less Canadian pig farmers we'd also have less Canadian bacon. Lets just put a ban on the amount kids people can have. That'll definitely cut down on gun deaths.
Duffman in your opinion how many gun related deaths are tolerable? 1? 10? 100? 1000?

Just because they crack down on guns it doesn't mean people aren't going to have them. What are the handgun laws in Canada? IIRC it's next to impossible to get them as a Civilian no?

Funny how no one posted about the gun arrests in Canada over Christmas by drug dealers at a mall, if it would have happened in America a thread would have be started praising Obama and his gun crackdown. Nonetheless , I think there was even a semi recent shooting at a Vietnamese restaurant by cineplex. My point is you have stringent gun laws but look who is still toting around guns. People are going to get guns if they want them . PLAIN AND SIMPLE FACT .

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

That's good but that really means nothing. If there were less people there would also be less of all those. If there were less Canadian pig farmers we'd also have less Canadian bacon. Lets just put a ban on the amount kids people can have. That'll definitely cut down on gun deaths.
Duffman in your opinion how many gun related deaths are tolerable? 1? 10? 100? 1000?

Just because they crack down on guns it doesn't mean people aren't going to have them. What are the handgun laws in Canada? IIRC it's next to impossible to get them as a Civilian no?

Funny how no one posted about the gun arrests in Canada over Christmas by drug dealers at a mall, if it would have happened in America a thread would have be started praising Obama and his gun crackdown. Nonetheless , I think there was even a semi recent shooting at a Vietnamese restaurant by cineplex. My point is you have stringent gun laws but look who is still toting around guns. People are going to get guns if they want them . PLAIN AND SIMPLE FACT .

First bolded part. Wha?

Second part. Yes you'll still have a few slip through the cracks. No one is arguing that. But the rate is still far far less. Especially in the 'mass shooting' category.

It's funny because you're starting to show the same attitude of the Nose Hill Gentleman. You feel you NEED your gun to keep you safe from others (who you feel also probably have guns). Not only is that an impossible chicken and egg argument that just adds to the problem, by causing further fear, and more people to feel they need guns, but all the stats show that yes, gun crimes do diminish in countries with stricter controls.

The occasional criminal will still get their hands on it, but many won't. It especially cuts down on lots of crimes of opportunity, or crimes by young people who take their parents guns.

Funny enough, I heard a stat once that a large portion (quarter? more, less? I dunno I'll check it) of gun crimes in Canada are done with guns that originally came from the States. So guess where a good portion of OUR illegal guns come from? Kinda throws your argument back at ya. Maybe even the Vietnamese restaurant incident you were talking about. Imagine if our neighbor wasn't so gun crazy, we'd be even safer than we are now. And the criminals that ARE looking for illegal guns would have an even tougher time trying to find them.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

That's good but that really means nothing. If there were less people there would also be less of all those. If there were less Canadian pig farmers we'd also have less Canadian bacon. Lets just put a ban on the amount kids people can have. That'll definitely cut down on gun deaths.
Duffman in your opinion how many gun related deaths are tolerable? 1? 10? 100? 1000?

Just because they crack down on guns it doesn't mean people aren't going to have them. What are the handgun laws in Canada? IIRC it's next to impossible to get them as a Civilian no?

Funny how no one posted about the gun arrests in Canada over Christmas by drug dealers at a mall, if it would have happened in America a thread would have be started praising Obama and his gun crackdown. Nonetheless , I think there was even a semi recent shooting at a Vietnamese restaurant by cineplex. My point is you have stringent gun laws but look who is still toting around guns. People are going to get guns if they want them . PLAIN AND SIMPLE FACT .

Well then just don't change a thing and keep doing what you are doing as it is working out so well. Or better yet, like you and the NRA say, get more guns in the hands of more people to counteract the gun violence.

Would you suggest Canada also do the same to prevent things like the Eatons Center shooting?

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Well then just don't change a thing and keep doing what you are doing as it is working out so well. Or better yet, like you and the NRA say, get more guns in the hands of more people to counteract the gun violence.

Would you suggest Canada also do the same to prevent things like the Eatons Center shooting?

What stop having kids?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

What stop having kids?

Why are you intentionally ducking the issue? It doesn't really do your position much good when you, and most others who take your stance, refuse to actually counter anything out there. It really is a case of just blind misguided faith.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by valo403

Why are you intentionally ducking the issue? It doesn't really do your position much good when you, and most others who take your stance, refuse to actually counter anything out there. It really is a case of just blind misguided faith.

You're in kind of a unique position of being a Canadian living in the USA (I think). What's your take on the issue? Any thoughts on measures the States should adopt that would help? Do you run into a lot of Americans where you live that want stricter gun control measures, or is nickerjones' opinion fairly typical for the Americans you talk to?

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Daradon

First bolded part. Wha?

Second part. Yes you'll still have a few slip through the cracks. No one is arguing that. But the rate is still far far less. Especially in the 'mass shooting' category.

It's funny because you're starting to show the same attitude of the Nose Hill Gentleman. You feel you NEED your gun to keep you safe from others (who you feel also probably have guns). Not only is that an impossible chicken and egg argument that just adds to the problem, by causing further fear, and more people to feel they need guns, but all the stats show that yes, gun crimes do diminish in countries with stricter controls.

The occasional criminal will still get their hands on it, but many won't. It especially cuts down on lots of crimes of opportunity, or crimes by young people who take their parents guns.

Funny enough, I heard a stat once that a large portion (quarter? more, less? I dunno I'll check it) of gun crimes in Canada are done with guns that originally came from the States. So guess where a good portion of OUR illegal guns come from? Kinda throws your argument back at ya. Maybe even the Vietnamese restaurant incident you were talking about. Imagine if our neighbor wasn't so gun crazy, we'd be even safer than we are now. And the criminals that ARE looking for illegal guns would have an even tougher time trying to find them.

You do know this is purely opinion right. You have said this many times like it's a proven fact.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

You do know this is purely opinion right. You have said this many times like it's a proven fact.

What is, that having less guns in a country means less criminals have guns? Or that countries with less gun have less gun crime? Or that many crimes are committed by people stealing other peoples guns? (Which pretty much goes into the first two points)

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

and all the numbers that you guys have reported are 100% without a doubt right on accurate... call me crazy but probably not.

I hate that people are debasing your arguments with hyperbole, as I do respect that you honestly hold these views and believe them supported.

However, this number is not verifiable at all and the numbers of gun deaths, crimes, etc are verifiable. Saying they are both wrong is disingenuous. This 2500 number is either made up out of thin air or taken from one of two survey studies of gun owners that has not only been thoroughly debunked, but were also likely not only flawed, but likely fraudulent. That number doesn't have any more fact behind it than me saying it.

Having said that, it is verifiable to say that a gun is far more likely to do bad things than good things.

The only argument for no gun control is to say these lives lost are just the price that must be paid to allow unfettered access to guns which is some inalienable right

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

You do know this is purely opinion right. You have said this many times like it's a proven fact.

It's been fact every time it's been tried.........

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

You do know this is purely opinion right. You have said this many times like it's a proven fact.

You're a good poster Nicker but I don't understand your unreasoned stance on this subject. Maybe you're bent out of shape due to the anti American sentiment of the odd poster. You have come to the conclusion that statistics from around the world which indicate less guns=less gun deaths is merely opinion and therefore you dismiss it. Instead, you fall back on that old chestnut about being helpless agaimst armed criminals. It looks like the NRA/GOP stategy has worked on you. Keep the population living in fear and keep those gun sales roaring along. What I am saying might seem harsh but its an opinion established through years of observation and interaction with Americans. Maybe some time spent outside of your home country might nudge your opinion more towards the world view.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The only argument for no gun control is to say these lives lost are just the price that must be paid to allow unfettered access to guns which is some inalienable right

Can't you say the same thing about alcohol consumption. How many people does drunk driving kill compared to guns? I don't know the answer as I am just musing out loud but I am sure its a lot.... Hell and we have liquor control. The argument could be that by having no alcohol we could save hundreds if not thousands of lives. I bet a ton of people here are drinking heroin beer at Flames games and still driving home.

We are on the same side of this fight. I think you can look back at all my posts in the gun threads, I have never said I am against gun control. I have said repeatedly if they say I can't own an Ar-15 I will have no argument with that.

I just think most people here are wanting that plus what seems like an outlaw on hand guns which 1. wont happen and 2. I think is silly. Do I have handguns? Yes . Are my handguns locked away where it makes its hard for others to get to? Yes. Would I feel safer if I had one at my house for personal protection? Yes. Will my Canadian wife allow me to have one at my house?..... NO

I feel like we arguing in circles. There is not one person around who can say anything or point out 1 statistic that will make me say ok F it , get rid of them all but also there isn't one thing I can say even it was the most logical thing in the world to make you guys say F it , let people have their guns.

We should just lock up the thread and be done with it.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

You're a good poster Nicker but I don't understand your unreasoned stance on this subject. Maybe you're bent out of shape due to the anti American sentiment of the odd poster. You have come to the conclusion that statistics from around the world which indicate less guns=less gun deaths is merely opinion and therefore you dismiss it. Instead, you fall back on that old chestnut about being helpless agaimst armed criminals. It looks like the NRA/GOP stategy has worked on you. Keep the population living in fear and keep those gun sales roaring along. What I am saying might seem harsh but its an opinion established through years of observation and interaction with Americans. Maybe some time spent outside of your home country might nudge your opinion more towards the world view.

What??? I come to Calgary every Christmas that's not enough? Please see my post above on my unreasoned stance. I am not bent out of shape because of the anti-American sentiment. I get it all the time from my wife's family, I am used to it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You're in kind of a unique position of being a Canadian living in the USA (I think). What's your take on the issue? Any thoughts on measures the States should adopt that would help? Do you run into a lot of Americans where you live that want stricter gun control measures, or is nickerjones' opinion fairly typical for the Americans you talk to?

Well the thing is I don't really live in the US, I live in NYC. That's partially a joke, but it really is a lot different here than it is in the rest of the country when it comes to attitudes about guns. People here are generally in favor of pretty substantial gun control measures as far as I can tell, and there's not exactly a lot of people who have the hunting and outdoors interests that justify recreational gun ownership. I did live in Michigan for a few years, which is full of hunters, and found that outside of hunting people weren't overly gun crazy, but I also didn't really associate with people who were likely to fall into that demographic.

I've gotten the sense that the real gun nut culture is more of a southern thing, I never saw a sign about whether or not your handgun was allowed in a restaurant in Michigan but I saw plenty in Nashville (which was a bit weird as it's a pretty progressive southern city). I've got a few theories for this (not researched, just thoughts I've had) ranging from continued anti-government culture reaching back to the civil war days to racial undertones.

I guess I don't have a lot of insight because I don't really involve myself with people or places that I'd expect the topic of guns to be controversial, but I'm increasingly realizing that it's an issue in places that previously seemed well removed from it, like suburban Connecticut.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Can't you say the same thing about alcohol consumption. How many people does drunk driving kill compared to guns? I don't know the answer as I am just musing out loud but I am sure its a lot.... Hell and we have liquor control. The argument could be that by having no alcohol we could save hundreds if not thousands of lives. I bet a ton of people here are drinking heroin beer at Flames games and still driving home.

We are on the same side of this fight. I think you can look back at all my posts in the gun threads, I have never said I am against gun control. I have said repeatedly if they say I can't own an Ar-15 I will have no argument with that.

I just think most people here are wanting that plus what seems like an outlaw on hand guns which 1. wont happen and 2. I think is silly. Do I have handguns? Yes . Are my handguns locked away where it makes its hard for others to get to? Yes. Would I feel safer if I had one at my house for personal protection? Yes. Will my Canadian wife allow me to have one at my house?..... NO

I feel like we arguing in circles. There is not one person around who can say anything or point out 1 statistic that will make me say ok F it , get rid of them all but also there isn't one thing I can say even it was the most logical thing in the world to make you guys say F it , let people have their guns.

We should just lock up the thread and be done with it.

Perhaps we are talking in circles. I'm arguing for stricter gun controls, you're arguing against a gun ban. Not the same thing

[valo403]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Can't you say the same thing about alcohol consumption. How many people does drunk driving kill compared to guns? I don't know the answer as I am just musing out loud but I am sure its a lot.... Hell and we have liquor control. The argument could be that by having no alcohol we could save hundreds if not thousands of lives. I bet a ton of people here are drinking heroin beer at Flames games and still driving home.

We are on the same side of this fight. I think you can look back at all my posts in the gun threads, I have never said I am against gun control. I have said repeatedly if they say I can't own an Ar-15 I will have no argument with that.

I just think most people here are wanting that plus what seems like an outlaw on hand guns which 1. wont happen and 2. I think is silly. Do I have handguns? Yes . Are my handguns locked away where it makes its hard for others to get to? Yes. Would I feel safer if I had one at my house for personal protection? Yes. Will my Canadian wife allow me to have one at my house?..... NO

I feel like we arguing in circles. There is not one person around who can say anything or point out 1 statistic that will make me say ok F it , get rid of them all but also there isn't one thing I can say even it was the most logical thing in the world to make you guys say F it , let people have their guns.

We should just lock up the thread and be done with it.

Who is? I haven't seen that anywhere.