American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

2stonedbirds, one morning and illiminaughty the next, weird.

I know DuffMan, it must be hard to something other then the normal rhetoric that gets thrown around this echo chamber. Any news on this Russian conspiracy?

I'll grow weary eventually and go back to lurking in the shadows again in due time.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

And which unrestrained capitalist States are those? Do you have any examples?

Communism has been an absolute disaster everywhere it has ever been attempted, that's what history shows. Socialism doesn't fare much better.

This idea of a progressive socially responsible State is a nice ideal on paper, too bad it isn't grounded in reality and is not how human beings are wired. You can't give a collective group of people that much power and expect them no to abuse it. Individualism is a much better ideal then collectivism, history has shown that.

Weird that it's socialist countries in Europe that consistently lead most if not all QoL measures, and free market countries consistently bringing up the rear. It's almost as if you're spouting ideological rhetoric without any evidence to backup your claims or something.

[TheIronMaiden]

My favorite political arguments are the ones which claim that they know absolutes about human nature.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

I know DuffMan, it must be hard to something other then the normal rhetoric that gets thrown around this echo chamber. Any news on this Russian conspiracy?

I'll grow weary eventually and go back to lurking in the shadows again in due time.

What's hard is listening to your guys, Fox News logic.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

How do you compete with China? It's not a level playing field. They don't have the same environmental and labor laws so they can do things much cheaper. Automation also creates jobs as well, it's not just completely one sided.

Race to the bottom

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Weird that it's socialist countries in Europe that consistently lead most if not all QoL measures, and free market countries consistently bringing up the rear. It's almost as if you're spouting ideological rhetoric without any evidence to backup your claims or something.

Shhhh. Don't cloud the issue with facts.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Individualism is a much better ideal then collectivism, history has shown that.

Really? Collectivism is the only thing that allowed our species to survive to the point where our numbers and machinery have made us the apex predator. Without collectivism, you would be bear food in a matter of hours.

Every time I see someone spout this individualism non-sense I just know that person is typing the post on their mass produced computer. Then after annoying us, they hop in their mass produced car to go down to the local chain super market to get a bag of mass produced chips and a case of mass produced beer so they can come back and continue to spout off about what an individual they are! The only individual thing they did during the day was to take an individually produced dump, but then wiped their individual arse with mass produced poo tickets. So rock on, you incredibly strong and self-sufficient individual person! Who needs the hard work of others for you to survive? You're an incredible example for us all!

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? Collectivism is the only thing that allowed our species to survive to the point where our numbers and machinery have made us the apex predator. Without collectivism, you would be bear food in a matter of hours.

Every time I see someone spout this individualism non-sense I just know that person is typing the post on their mass produced computer. Then after annoying us, they hop in their mass produced car to go down to the local chain super market to get a bag of mass produced chips and a case of mass produced beer so they can come back and continue to spout off about what an individual they are! The only individual thing they did during the day was to take an individually produced dump, but then wiped their individual arse with mass produced poo tickets. So rock on, you incredibly strong and self-sufficient individual person! Who needs the hard work of others for you to survive? You're an incredible example for us all!

I know some of you thought you heard a mic drop before but this was actually it.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Weird that it's socialist countries in Europe that consistently lead most if not all QoL measures, and free market countries consistently bringing up the rear. It's almost as if you're spouting ideological rhetoric without any evidence to backup your claims or something.

There's many factors that these measures fail to address.

If Europe is doing so good, why did they have to unify to stay competitive.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

What's hard is listening to your guys, Fox News logic.

Oh like the mainstream media you listen to is any better. It's the same garbage all around, that's why it's becoming irrelevant.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

There's many factors that these measures fail to address.

If Europe is doing so good, why did they have to unify to stay competitive.

Because blowing each other to smithereens over small differences wasn't making anybody's life better.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Because blowing each other to smithereens over small differences wasn't making anybody's life better.

Shhhh...a cursory knowledge of world history and historical context doesn't mix well with libertarianism.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

There's many factors that these measures fail to address.

Like which ones?

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? Collectivism is the only thing that allowed our species to survive to the point where our numbers and machinery have made us the apex predator. Without collectivism, you would be bear food in a matter of hours.

Every time I see someone spout this individualism non-sense I just know that person is typing the post on their mass produced computer. Then after annoying us, they hop in their mass produced car to go down to the local chain super market to get a bag of mass produced chips and a case of mass produced beer so they can come back and continue to spout off about what an individual they are! The only individual thing they did during the day was to take an individually produced dump, but then wiped their individual arse with mass produced poo tickets. So rock on, you incredibly strong and self-sufficient individual person! Who needs the hard work of others for you to survive? You're an incredible example for us all!

More slight of hand from you, got anymore conservative straw men arguments to put forth?

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

Collectivism: is the idea that the individual’s life belongs not to him but to the group or society of which he is merely a part, that he has no rights, and that he must sacrifice his values and goals for the group’s “greater good.” According to collectivism, the group or society is the basic unit of moral concern, and the individual is of value only insofar as he serves the group.

It doesn't mean that people don't work together to fulfill their needs mutually. Both ideas try to accomplish the same thing, just one works so much better. I know the idea of voluntarism and the free market are lost on, you want a centrally planned nanny state to tell you how to live.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by New Era

Okay, these are the two passages you bolded for emphasis. So let's look at how wrong these comments are.

Great post.. I have a few comments, but agree with the majority of what was said.

Originally Posted by New Era

There is some truth to this. Cost of labor is factored into the cost of goods and services, so by raising labor costs you are certain to see inflation take place in the cost of those goods and services. What is missing is that there are other factors that influence price as well, and those factors can be used to counter inflationary effects of labor costs. Resources used in manufacturing can be sourced elsewhere. Contracts can be renegotiated for better pricing and margins on components. Different suppliers can be sought out. Internal processes can be streamlined leading to greater efficiencies and lower overhead. Marketing costs can be reduced. Overpriced executives and middle management who do nothing but soak up profits can be eliminated. Labor costs are just one factor in prices. But you would know that if you had attended Econ 101 at Rocko's Garage and Night School for the Grossly Ill-informed.

Unfortunately, the cost outs mentioned above are completely true and do happen. These usually result in a loss of low and higher paying middle-class jobs elsewhere and could cause more of "U" shape between the poor and the ultra rich (with no middle class in the middle).

I'm not advocating that the minimum wage shouldn't increase so that they have more money, but unfortunately it will usually have impacts elsewhere in the economy.

Originally Posted by New Era

As just pointed out, this is not always true. It has become a standard practice with American businesses, because they are very near-sighted and don't think long-term.

Definitely the result of the stock market and activist investors. The stock price must go up so I can sell and get my profit.... who cares what happens to the company after I sell though!

Originally Posted by New Era

Regulations have zero to do with the funding of medicaid. NOTHING. Regulations are put in place to protect consumers, to protect the marketplace, and to protect the environment. Regulations do not impact any funding to medicaid because regulations do not impact the taxes collected through payroll deductions.

Agreed. Regulations are essential for safety. Unfortunately while regulations have nothing to do with funding, they do have a lot to do with costs. If there are no regulations about product safety, companies can eliminate all sorts of testing and reduce the cost of the product. Higher costs means greater funding is needed.

To me, the fallacy of those supporting the Republican position is a belief that eliminating regulations will mean lower prices. This is hardly the case - it will just mean more profits for the ultra rich, and more risk and worse products for the general public.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

Yes, if there is something that accurately describes the working class in capitalist societies, it's that they consistently get to keep and use the products of their efforts.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Because blowing each other to smithereens over small differences wasn't making anybody's life better.

What? So force everybody to live as one under the guise of unifying. Tell me how do you feel about world governance? Should there just be one world governing body and do away with any form of National sovereignty.

What was this looming European war that was going to happen if they didn't unify?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

What? So force everybody to live as one under the guise of unifying. Tell me how do you feel about world governance? Should there just be one world governing body and do away with any form of National sovereignty.

What was this looming European war that was going to happen if they didn't unify?

I...can't even.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes, if there is something that accurately describes the working class in capitalist societies, it's that they consistently get to keep and use the products of their efforts.

So what is progressive taxation then, but another way to redistribute wealth to the "collective"? They get to keep some of the fruits of their labour, but not all. Does this seem fair to you?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

What? So force everybody to live as one under the guise of unifying. Tell me how do you feel about world governance? Should there just be one world governing body and do away with any form of National sovereignty.

What was this looming European war that was going to happen if they didn't unify?

Where is this happening?

You're not describing the EU.