Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't agree with the policy of settling Gaza or any of the settlements that are happening, or the Zionist movement, or really any far right fundamental Israeli policies, parties or government actions, but I said on Oct 8 that the 2 state solution is no longer going to be a viable option as far as Israel is concerned and it no longer will just be the 'far right' who will think like that.

This is the price that will be paid because of a lack of proper oversight and accountability over what has happened in Gaza for the past 70 years.

Obviously there are many people at fault, but the entities that have poured money into Gaza through UNRWA while openly admitting that they knew it was going into the hands of Hamas, are who are really to blame here.

This has never been about helping the people of Gaza.

It has been about manipulation to enrich and enpower Hamas, whose primary purpose for existence is NOT to help the people of Gaza.

And that is one of the primary reasons the situation is as it is right now.

You are right, it is sad. And those that are responsible will never be held, responsible.

Really? That's who is to blame here? Ask yourself why these organizations needed to exist in the first place and what their roles were defined as. The corruption of the institutions happened along the way(and shouldn't be surprising), but don't lose sight of why they existed in the first place. Keep digging, you'll eventually find some root causes.

[TheIronMaiden]

I can accept the argument that Israeli has the right to defend their way of life and people from violence.

But I can't accept the argument that Isreal holds no blame in creating an environment where a large group of people are hostile towards them.

That would be like the USA saying, gee why are ISIS so hostile against us, must be their religious propaganda, because we've never shown anyone in the region harm. Maybe the religious propaganda works because folks are already angry and want a channel it.

[Fuzzy14]

I can accept the argument that Israeli has the right to defend their way of life and people from violence.

But I can't accept the argument that Isreal holds no blame in creating an environment where a large group of people are hostile towards them.

That would be like the USA saying, gee why are ISIS so hostile against us, must be their religious propaganda, because we've never shown anyone in the region harm. Maybe the religious propaganda works because folks are already angry and want a channel it.

This has been my position for a long time. I'm generally predisposed to being supportive of Israel, but it's willingness to constantly cede the moral high ground by continuing to commit the single largest act that they are criticized for (expanded settlement), has infuriated for a long time.

Ultimately, you have two parties with irreconcilable positions. It's not a climate for any sort of peace that lasts more than a handful of days.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I can accept the argument that Israeli has the right to defend their way of life and people from violence.

But I can't accept the argument that Isreal holds no blame in creating an environment where a large group of people are hostile towards them.

That would be like the USA saying, gee why are ISIS so hostile against us, must be their religious propaganda, because we've never shown anyone in the region harm. Maybe the religious propaganda works because folks are already angry and want a channel it.

The same thing can be said the other way around. Daily rocket attacks, frequent terrorist attacks, kidnappings, a charter in the neighboring government that explicitly says their objective is your eradication, etc., also contributes to the environment and Israel's response. Then on top of that, the October 7th attack.

There is so much talk about Israel's actions creating an environment for extremism and manufacturing future extremists, but it works both ways.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I can accept the argument that Israeli has the right to defend their way of life and people from violence.

But I can't accept the argument that Isreal holds no blame in creating an environment where a large group of people are hostile towards them.

That would be like the USA saying, gee why are ISIS so hostile against us, must be their religious propaganda, because we've never shown anyone in the region harm. Maybe the religious propaganda works because folks are already angry and want a channel it.

Any rational person can see that both sides do lots of things wrong. There are elements on both sides that want to wipe the other side out. From an amoral perspective, both sides would likely be better off if the other didn't exist. With the history between the two peoples, it's going to create movements that don't have much sympathy for the other side.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The same thing can be said the other way around. Daily rocket attacks, frequent terrorist attacks, kidnappings, a charter in the neighboring government that explicitly says their objective is your eradication, etc., also contributes to the environment and Israel's response. Then on top of that, the October 7th attack.

There is so much talk about Israel's actions creating an environment for extremism and manufacturing future extremists, but it works both ways.

I understand that, but the violence has not been balanced. So are we punishing Isreal for being better at killing people? or are we asking a country that is 100% capable of killing every Palestinian and appears to be preparing for a massive land grab to show restraint?

[Fuzz]

So after Israel eventually takes everything, do these people(those pushing it forward) really believe they will finally be able to live in peace? Or are they just ready to be at war forever to defend their god given lands? Because I really don't see peace being an option after that. Their enemies will gain resolve.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So after Israel eventually takes everything, do these people(those pushing it forward) really believe they will finally be able to live in peace? Or are they just ready to be at war forever to defend their god given lands? Because I really don't see peace being an option after that. Their enemies will gain resolve.

Step 1. Israel pushes 1 million gazans into the Sinai.
Step 2. Egypt rips up the peace deal with Israel.
Step 3. Israel builds settlements in Gaza.
Step 4. Former Israel allies start to boycott Israel.
Step 5. Hamas still exists and launches attacks on the new settlers.
Step 6. ???

Seriously, Israel is setting itself up to be forever at war.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Step 1. Israel pushes 1 million gazans into the Sinai.
Step 2. Egypt rips up the peace deal with Israel.
Step 3. Israel builds settlements in Gaza.
Step 4. Former Israel allies start to boycott Israel.
Step 5. Hamas still exists and launches attacks on the new settlers.
Step 6. ???

Seriously, Israel is setting itself up to be forever at war.

When has Israel not been at war?

Also, Israel has not been alone in setting itself up in foreverwar. Everyone in the region uses Israel and Palestine as proxies to fight their own foreverwar without getting their own hands dirty (directly). These conversations so often boil down into "Hamas bad" or "Israel bad" but there are so many fingers in this pie that continue to push their own agenda through the use of this conflict. That list includes but is not exclusive to USA, Russia, Iran, Egypt, Jordan Lebanon, Syria, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. It's ultimately Israel and Palestine that is pulling the triggers but it's these other actors that are ensuring peace will never happen. We should reserve at least a little outrage and listicles for them too.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

When has Israel not been at war?

Also, Israel has not been alone in setting itself up in foreverwar. Everyone in the region uses Israel and Palestine as proxies to fight their own foreverwar without getting their own hands dirty (directly). These conversations so often boil down into "Hamas bad" or "Israel bad" but there are so many fingers in this pie that continue to push their own agenda through the use of this conflict. That list includes but is not exclusive to USA, Russia, Iran, Egypt, Jordan Lebanon, Syria, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. It's ultimately Israel and Palestine that is pulling the triggers but it's these other actors that are ensuring peace will never happen. We should reserve at least a little outrage and listicles for them too.

This is what I mean.

The situation is being horribly manipulated to serve people that are not in Israel or Gaza.

And we think people in Israel or Gaza can act to stop the problem.

There is more burden of responsibility on Israel because they have more resources, powerful, etc, but I don't know if the people of Gaza are able to do anything to stop the fact that they are being preyed upon when its become a generational issue already.

[Bagor]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1752741302003765470

[activeStick]

According to a Belgium minister, Israel just bombed a Belgium Agency building in Gaza. Belgium is one of the countries that has refused to cut funding from UNRWA I believe, along with Spain and many others.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by activeStick

According to a Belgium minister, Israel just bombed a Belgium Agency building in Gaza. Belgium is one of the countries that has refused to cut funding from UNRWA I believe, along with Spain and many others.

Holy crap. That’s not good. Source?

[activeStick]

There were probably Belgian members who were also Hamas members.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1753162275580444928

[activeStick]

It sounds like the Port of Vancouver is being disturbed by protestors attempting to shut it down.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1753101653669269734

[Harry Lime]

Does Canada send any arms to Isreal? I don't think that they do, which means this is most effective blockade ever. The demands were met throughout time and space.

[activeStick]

I don't think they do either. I work in one of the financial banking towers here in Toronto and protestors have setup shop twice in the lobby because the bank is the third biggest shareholder of an Israel-based weapons manufacturer.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Does Canada send any arms to Isreal? I don't think that they do, which means this is most effective blockade ever. The demands were met throughout time and space.

The protesters dispersed several hours ago.

Canada does sell military equipment to Israel but it is really not that much. Canada sold $21 million of Military equipment to Israel in 2022 which is the same amount as Canada sold to Singapore and slightly more than Algeria.

Canada sold Qatar $50 million of equipment, Saudi Arabia with over $1billion , and the UAE at $25 million.

Canada actually imports twice the amount of goods from Israel than Israel does from Canada so Canada disrupting trade with Israel could potentially hurt Canada more than Israel, which is why some sort of boycott of Israel is never going to happen. Very little benefit for Canada to annoy whats been a mutually beneficial trading partner. I believe we import a substantial amount of our medical equipment from Israel amongst a lot of other technology.

[Bagor]

A federal court in California has ruled that Israel’s military campaign in Gaza “plausibly” amounts to genocide, but dismissed a case aimed at stopping US military support for Israel as being outside the court’s jurisdiction.

“There are rare cases in which the preferred outcome is inaccessible to the court. This is one of those cases,” the US district court in the northern district of California ruled. “The court is bound by precedent and the division of our coordinate branches of government to abstain from exercising jurisdiction in this matter.

“Yet, as the ICJ [the international court of justice] has found, it is plausible that Israel’s conduct amounts to genocide,” the judge in the case, Jeffrey White, said in his ruling, in a case brought by Palestinian human rights groups and individual Palestinians against President Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, and Lloyd Austin, the defence secretary.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lifornia-court

[Nage Waza]

If that is genocide, what do you call what the Palestinian government wants to do to jews or Israelis? Or for that matter, Hamas does to their own citizens?

Hamas deserves what they are getting and I hope Palestinians are smarter than you and help get rid of them.