ISIS militants attack and take over Iraqi northern city of Mosul

[Vulcan]

What's evil probably depends on who wins and who writes the history.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am sorry, but to be that flippant, make me wonder what is wrong with you. Most sane people get upset, or disturbed when faced with a scene like that.

Do those images disturb me emotionally? Yes.
(Not much though. I see death on my FB feed all the time these days.)

Does it stop me from rationally accepting that what I'm seeing is "normal" in a war? No.

I know I was upset when I saw those pictures. You get that those are people in the pictures, correct? I would suggest you are the one that has watched too much "Hollywood versions of war". You appear desensitized to the death and suffering of others.

You seem to be making an "argument" that's basicly "people should react to this picture the way I do".

You also seem disproportionaly outraged by the fact that I don't consider an act to be more evil just because I see a picture of it actually happening.

For me, "evil" is fundamental, it's something that disturbs me on every level, most of all rationally. I don't think it's even possible to make a valid "that is evil" statement when you are so emotional that you can't think straight.

I suggest that maybe you should take a closer look to how you react to those photos, and ask if it is a correct reaction/response.

I suggest you take a deep breath and consider the possibility that you are letting your disgust and even hate and fear get the best of you. That's the stuff that breeds single-minded, irrational behaviour and stupid political decisions on the grand scale. It's what feeds cycles of violence.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about the label of 'evil'.

I think it has a dehumanizing quality, as in "these guys are evil, let's drop bombs on them".

I think it's a little bit more complicated than bombing them to the stone age and salting the earth to prevent or stifle jihadism.

I don't know if these guys are any more 'evil', than some other bygone trapping of religious fanaticism. I don't think bombs and bullets is going to solve it though.

to be honest, I think their actions have a dehumanizing quality more so than any words we direct at them

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

What's evil probably depends on who wins and who writes the history.

Things like large scale rape and execution of minorities are just evil.

You can objectively say some acts are evil. Which people are evil is definitely a matter for the history books though.

[afc wimbledon]

The trouble with evil as a concept is it presumes that it is rare or unusual, the reality is the 'freedom fighters' we back will be just as brutal, will rape and behead and crucify, all of us are evil given the right circumstances. Hence Milgrams experiment and Eichmans 'banality of evil'.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

to be honest, I think their actions have a dehumanizing quality more so than any words we direct at them

adurr- I realized I just sort of jumped in the middle here, but I don't think anything you've said is really wrong. I'm not trying to disagree.

Thinking out loud, I guess.

I'm pretty ignorant of the situation right now, other than a pretty solid education on the latest attrocities via this thread.

Do we know who's funding this outfit and what rock they crawled out from under?

[nik-]

Probably the Saudi's originally, but now they're pretty capable of self funding. At least for a while. They are basically Al Qaeda in Iraq. If you remember Abu Musab al-Zarqawi from about 10 years back ... he's the guy that was basically trying to start a Civil War by car bombing Shia and Sunni alike. He's the one that Bin Laden wrote a letter to to tell him to chill out. This is his baby all grown up.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Saudi is not a US ally, it's royal family likes our money but the country is the birthplace of Islamic extremism, the average Saudi hates everything the west stands for, Jordan and Egypt are not much better, given the relative instability of all of these countries they are just as likely to be implacable enemies in a few months time.
You make a huge mistake thinking the thugs in charge of a country are either telling the truth or represent their people.

As long as we can blow them to hell or buy their oil they will acquiesce but that doesn't mean they like us.

Fair enough.

It's a question of how you define an "ally" really. And the Saudi's loyalty to the States lasts only as long as the US gives them massive amounts of weapons and money.

My point still stands though. US policy really has nothing to do with the ongoing motivation for this stuff. We're talking about people killing their own neighbours for no other reason than they believe in a different religion. Christian Iraqis suffered in the US invasion just as much as their muslim neighbours.

The Saudi policy of funding extremists and setting up Sunni states has been ongoing for many decades. The only thing that will change it is when these groups begin to turn on the Saudis themselves.

[CaptainCrunch]

There is no debate to me that ISIS is a great evil. A group that buries woman alive and beheads children, this is a group that uses crucifixion and uses slow drain throat slitting to kill civilians.

I've equated them to the crusades I could also equate them to Hitler's SS regiments in that they let their hatred of everyone outside of themselves and their twisted ideology drive them.

When someone says that they're just death squads, I throw up a little.

At the end of the day this is a drawing of the worst elements of radical Islam into one group.

These aren't freedom fighters, or Avengers of wrongs done by the West, these are all of the hate filled morons indoctrinated into a philosophy of hatred and caught in an orgy of murder and destruction.

If this group wins they will clean out violently anyone that disagrees with them, or anyone that's not part of their vile version of Islam, and it won't matter if its men woman or children or if its soldiers or civilian.

Personally the only benefit of this group being focused in one area is that you can blockade it in and if anyone had the strength of resolves and slaughter every member of that group, which is what needs to be done.

You can't compromise with this group, you cannot negotiate with this group, and you can't appease this group because a sign of weakness with this group encourages this group and helps it grow stronger.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

adurr- I realized I just sort of jumped in the middle here, but I don't think anything you've said is really wrong. I'm not trying to disagree.

Thinking out loud, I guess.

I'm pretty ignorant of the situation right now, other than a pretty solid education on the latest attrocities via this thread.

Do we know who's funding this outfit and what rock they crawled out from under?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-isis-...a-was-pre-911/

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

Do those images disturb me emotionally? Yes.
(Not much though. I see death on my FB feed all the time these days.)

So you are desensitized.

Does it stop me from rationally accepting that what I'm seeing is "normal" in a war? No.

It is not normal in war. At no point during my training did we ever cover off shooting unarmed people in the back of the head.

Maybe you are confusing war and war crime.

You seem to be making an "argument" that's basicly "people should react to this picture the way I do".

I would hope that most empathetic/civilized people would find those pictures repugnant.

You also seem disproportionaly outraged by the fact that I don't consider an act to be more evil just because I see a picture of it actually happening.

For me, "evil" is fundamental, it's something that disturbs me on every level, most of all rationally. I don't think it's even possible to make a valid "that is evil" statement when you are so emotional that you can't think straight.

I can think straight, I don't understand how you can differentiate between shooting a person the back of the head to kill them and "locking then in a cage" to die. Both are evil disgusting things.

I suggest you take a deep breath and consider the possibility that you are letting your disgust and even hate and fear get the best of you. That's the stuff that breeds single-minded, irrational behaviour and stupid political decisions on the grand scale. It's what feeds cycles of violence.

If hating to see people get murder is irrational, the yeah I am.

Perhaps the classifying and dithering over different levels/kinds of evil and evil doers allows/facilitates these events.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by Itse

Do those images disturb me emotionally? Yes.
(Not much though. I see death on my FB feed all the time these days.)

Sounds like you have some pretty weird Facebook friends

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Nyah

Sounds like you have some pretty weird Facebook friends

Yeah that's pretty hardcore.........

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Itse

Do those images disturb me emotionally? Yes.
(Not much though. I see death on my FB feed all the time these days.)

.

I just get cat videos

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Itse

There are a few of reasons why I'm reluctant to label the ISIS as "evil".

First off, it's a generalization. There are obviously really messed up people in the ISIS army, but generally the true believers in any system are a minority. The rhetoric seems mostly pretty vague, which makes it hard to know how serious they are in their religious furor. The PR guy in the Vice video seemed to be holding back laugher as he was reading the propaganda.

You seem to infer (is that the right word or is it imply?) that only a minority of the ISIS army are "true believers" or "messed up" and the rest are just normal sane people. How do you know this? Do you have some inside information?

Also, from other posts in other threads, and this one, you seem to be very pro Islam. Just curious, do you adhere to a particular religion? I myself am Catholic, so to a certain extent my opinions have been somewhat molded by my Catholic upbringing (although I have to admit that I haven't been to Church in many, many years and stopped attending mass on a regular basis once I left home after high school graduation).

[photon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Perhaps the classifying and dithering over different levels/kinds of evil and evil doers allows/facilitates these events.

I agree with Itse, it's the single minded classification that facilitates evil actions. Trying to gain a deeper understanding won't ever lead to worse outcome.

And I think you are making it far too personal, you can disagree with him without back-handed psychoanalysis.

I look at it this way, if you took 100 people that were doing evil things out of ISIS, and replaced them with 100 random people from this forum... replaced them at birth, so they would live the exact life that the ISIS member they replaced lived... what would be the outcome? Would those 100 forum members act any differently? Individuals might act differently due to different genes, but if you average out the individual effect from genes, there won't be any difference will there?

People are significantly a product of the environment they're raised in, and the worse the circumstances the worse it'll be for the people.

If someone is raised in a society where racism is the norm, I don't blame them for it.

If someone's raised from infancy to hate a group of people to the point that killing them is reasonable, raised in an environment devoid of education or any opportunity to learn morals, raised steeped in violence and death, I can't blame them when they act that way. I don't deny they do evil things, but I want to ask why they are doing evil things.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by photon

I agree with Itse, it's the single minded classification that facilitates evil actions. Trying to gain a deeper understanding won't ever lead to worse outcome.

And I think you are making it far too personal, you can disagree with him without back-handed psychoanalysis.

I look at it this way, if you took 100 people that were doing evil things out of ISIS, and replaced them with 100 random people from this forum... replaced them at birth, so they would live the exact life that the ISIS member they replaced lived... what would be the outcome? Would those 100 forum members act any differently? Individuals might act differently due to different genes, but if you average out the individual effect from genes, there won't be any difference will there?

People are significantly a product of the environment they're raised in, and the worse the circumstances the worse it'll be for the people.

If someone is raised in a society where racism is the norm, I don't blame them for it.

If someone's raised from infancy to hate a group of people to the point that killing them is reasonable, raised in an environment devoid of education or any opportunity to learn morals, raised steeped in violence and death, I can't blame them when they act that way. I don't deny they do evil things, but I want to ask why they are doing evil things.

I would agree but in this day in age with the way the world is now wired it's hard to believe these people think it's "OK" to act like this.

As far as I know Muslims have never killed Muslims on anywhere near the scale that is happening. this is a whole new level IMO.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by T@T

I would agree but in this day in age with the way the world is now wired it's hard to believe these people think it's "OK" to act like this.

As far as I know Muslims have never killed Muslims on anywhere near the scale that is happening. this is a whole new level IMO.

Do you mean interconnected? like with the internet and so on?

Because that is another factor with groups like this.

They are isolated, usually purposely, and are not connected to the rest of the world so they don't know what so called "normal" is.

[Tinordi]

The discussion of an objective evil really warps our self-satisfying moral codes and perpetuates an us vs. them framework. Am I to say that we can't vigorously punish and learn from the identification of various perturbations of evil? No. But I think the capacity for evil is in all of us and that in favourable socio-institutional settings, we are capabale of awesome moral tragedies. Which is why we owe it to ourselves to really *understand* evil. Well beyond the pithy and simplistic attempts in this thread.

My only exhibit of fact is the Stanford Prison Experiment. It's a fascinating read into the real blackness of the human condition. Only until we understand how this capability exists in all of us can we really learn to not be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

On August 20, 1971, Zimbardo announced the end of the experiment to the participants. The results of the experiment have been argued to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. The experiment has also been used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of authority.

The results of the experiment favor situational attribution of behavior rather than dispositional attribution (a result caused by internal characteristics). In other words, it seemed that the situation, rather than their individual personalities, caused the participants' behavior. Under this interpretation, the results are compatible with the results of the Milgram experiment, in which ordinary people fulfilled orders to administer what appeared to be agonizing and dangerous electric shocks to a confederate of the experimenter.

[Hack&Lube]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fara...737749?cmp=rss

Calgarian fighting with ISIS likely dead.