Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Maybe because it is pretty much common knowledge that Hamas uses hospitals? It was reported on several weeks ago.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ng-2023-11-23/

That is a link of the Israeli military arresting some personnel and claiming that Hamas was using Hospitals. Nothing more.

There is a ginormous difference between what the IDF claims and what is common knowledge. Quite worrying that you can't or won't discern the diff between the two. .

[Bagor]

Regarding the skepticism and overall distrust the world has for the word of Israel.

One small exhibit. Of many. Zero shame. This is what the world sees and this is how the world forms an opinion of trustworthyness.

I saw the report this morning. There are no churches in Gaza.
Unfortunately there are no Christians as they were driven out.
Well I don't know what happened. I didn't see the report.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1737015437966086404

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Language

You know this is war, right? And just like in most wars, civilians usually pay a higher price.

Here's a suggestion: maybe look into things even the tiniest bit before just spouting random nonsense.

The attack on Gaza has killed more civilians in total than all of the war on Ukraine.

Not relative to time scale or population size. Just total numbers.

The number of dead children alone will pretty soon surpass all civilian deaths in Ukraine since February 2022.

It's just an absolute massacre.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That is a link of the Israeli military arresting some personnel and claiming that Hamas was using Hospitals. Nothing more.

There is a ginormous difference between what the IDF claims and what is common knowledge. Quite worrying that you can't or won't discern the diff between the two. .

Yup. If you look at the numbers, Israel is basically claiming all dead adult males as "Hamas fighters".

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That is a link of the Israeli military arresting some personnel and claiming that Hamas was using Hospitals. Nothing more.

There is a ginormous difference between what the IDF claims and what is common knowledge. Quite worrying that you can't or won't discern the diff between the two. .

Ah, but you take everything put out by the "Gaza Health Authority'"(Hamas) as Gospel.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yup. If you look at the numbers, Israel is basically claiming all dead adult males as "Hamas fighters".

And some in here are quoting Hamas fed numbers to the media or red cross as the truth.
It blows my mind that everything put out by Israel is suspect but numbers derived from Hamas sources aren't questioned.

That's a load of ####, I'll need a source where Israel is claiming that and not just one random Israeli.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That is a link of the Israeli military arresting some personnel and claiming that Hamas was using Hospitals. Nothing more.

There is a ginormous difference between what the IDF claims and what is common knowledge. Quite worrying that you can't or won't discern the diff between the two. .

So are you saying unequivocally that no weapons were found at the hospital and Hamas doesn't use hospitals as cover and where did you come by that information.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zevo

So are you saying unequivocally that no weapons were found at the hospital and Hamas doesn't use hospitals as cover and where did you come by that information.

No.
Where did I say that? And how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

I am saying like you the only evidence of this so far is that of a nation that has a global reputation of being untrustworthy and lying and its associated military that has shown to be worse. The world doesn't trust them.

Now why don't you share why you hang onto and present the word of Israel and IDF as truth? Why should the world believe them?

Why did you present the word of the IDF as "common knowledge" when it is clearly not. Were you being deliberately dishonest or just naive?

[CliffFletcher]

There are several levels of care that militaries can take when attacking areas occupied by civilians.

1 Do not attack them at all. Try to achieve your aims through special ops.

2 Carry out your operations that you know will result in civilians casualties, but taking great care to minimize those casualties, even if this means substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

3 Carry out operations that you know will result in civilian casualties, with some care to reduce those casualties, but not at the expense of substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

4 Bomb the area with zero regard for civilian casualties.

5 Bomb the area with the aim of killing as many civilians as possible.

The IDF seems to be practicing #3. If it were 4 or 5 there would be vastly more civilians killed.

[Looch City]

You wouldn't call the current number of civilians killed as "vast"?

What defines vast anyway?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There are several levels of care that militaries can take when attacking areas occupied by civilians.

1 Do not attack them at all. Try to achieve your aims through special ops.

2 Carry out your operations that you know will result in civilians casualties, but taking great care to minimize those casualties, even if this means substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

3 Carry out operations that you know will result in civilian casualties, with some care to reduce those casualties, but not at the expense of substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

4 Bomb the area with zero regard for civilian casualties.

5 Bomb the area with the aim of killing as many civilians as possible.

The IDF seems to be practicing #3. If it were 4 or 5 there would be vastly more civilians killed.

And what kind of support do you have to believe they are practicing 3 over 4?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Looch City

You wouldn't call the current number of civilians killed as "vast"?

What defines vast anyway?

Bombing of Tokyo in 1945 killed 100,000+ civilians in one night, and left 1M+ homeless. Hiroshima bombing killed even more, some estimates as high as 150,000. Those are the kinds of vast numbers modern humans are capable of killing if they take things up to 'level 5' on Cliff's scale.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There are several levels of care that militaries can take when attacking areas occupied by civilians.

1 Do not attack them at all. Try to achieve your aims through special ops.

2 Carry out your operations that you know will result in civilians casualties, but taking great care to minimize those casualties, even if this means substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

3 Carry out operations that you know will result in civilian casualties, with some care to reduce those casualties, but not at the expense of substantially higher casualties among your personnel.

4 Bomb the area with zero regard for civilian casualties.

5 Bomb the area with the aim of killing as many civilians as possible.

The IDF seems to be practicing #3. If it were 4 or 5 there would be vastly more civilians killed.

All indications out of the ground seem to show that it's more like 4, possibly 5 going on.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Leondros

And what kind of support do you have to believe they are practicing 3 over 4?

Israel has given warning to civilians to vacate areas they’re targeting. And given the population density of Gaza, far more people would have been killed if Israel were just carpet bombing every neighbourhood and building without any regard for whether civilians were present.

[Red Slinger]

I'd say the IDF is alternating between 3 and 4 on Cliff's scale. The number of civilian deaths is alarming. The Israeli government/military could certainly do more to reduce the number of civilian casualties. That would likely result in both more Israeli soldier casualties and slower progress in their goal of destroying Hamas. It seems to me that they have made a risk/reward calculation and determined that the reward outweighs the risk. I don't agree with their position but I also think they're in a no-win situation.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Israel has given warning to civilians to vacate areas they’re targeting. And given the population density of Gaza, far more people would have been killed if Israel were just carpet bombing every neighbourhood and building without any regard for whether civilians were present.

Mike Tyson could tell me which hand he is going to beat me with and still knock me within an inch of my life.

I understand that it helps save lives but what good does laterally running from place to place without food water or shelter really do? What happens when it is summer and 40* plus.

[PepsiFree]

Targeting civilians isn’t just about killing them through force. A lack of resources, starvation, completely destroying or damaging 30%+ of buildings (including homes, schools, and places of worship), and making others such as hospitals inoperable… these are all ways Israel can achieve it’s goal of removing Palestinians from Gaza permanently. They don’t need to kill every last one of them.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Mike Tyson could tell me which hand he is going to beat me with and still knock me within an inch of my life.

I understand that it helps save lives but what good does laterally running from place to place without food water or shelter really do? What happens when it is summer and 40* plus.

And that's when the numbers are going to more disputed.

When the deaths by starvation, disease, lack of access to food, water, shelter, medical supplies start to mount up.

Didn't die directly from a munition? Didn't cause it!

What's unique about this conflict is the civilians have nowhere to escape to.

Cliff's scale doesn't account for the level of care, or deliberate neglect of refusing access to basic civilian human rights.

[Doctorfever]

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...nt-since-oct-7

Opinion piece written by a guy who has no love for the Liberal government.

But interesting that a terrorist organization has thanked Canada for their support.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Itse

Here's a suggestion: maybe look into things even the tiniest bit before just spouting random nonsense.

The attack on Gaza has killed more civilians in total than all of the war on Ukraine.

Not relative to time scale or population size. Just total numbers.

The number of dead children alone will pretty soon surpass all civilian deaths in Ukraine since February 2022.

It's just an absolute massacre.

Do you honestly think that all of the women and children of Mariupol, who were sent to Russia for 'reeducation', are having a good time?