Israel declares war on Hamas

[Manhattanboy]

YES Productions has created a documentary on the events of October 7 at the Super Nova Music Festival. I have seen parts and it’s graphic and shocking and gut wrenching. I don’t know how one recovers after seeing the horrors of that morning. Those kids. Those poor kids.

There are also incredible accounts of bravery on the part of the Israeli police that morning. 58 of them died, being the worst day in the history of Israel’s police force.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Why would the IDF publicly release the additional details of the tragic mistake by its soldiers? It seems to be a signal to the government of Israel of the huge difficulties they face in attempting to rescue the remaining hostages on their own and that another deal is urgently needed.

Should they not? Wouldn’t it be worse to cover it up and then have the truth come out later?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

YES Productions has created a documentary on the events of October 7 at the Super Nova Music Festival. I have seen parts and it’s graphic and shocking and gut wrenching. I don’t know how one recovers after seeing the horrors of that morning. Those kids. Those poor kids.

There are also incredible accounts of bravery on the part of the Israeli police that morning. 58 of them died, being the worst day in the history of Israel’s police force.

Is this the one comprised entirely of cell phone footage/without commentary? I read up on that one a bit, and thought that was a really respectful and important way to present both the horror and resilience that took place that day.

[Southside403]

This is messed up
https://youtu.be/x7vfg2fLFlE?si=e3kmhODLyUJJKyE1

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Is this the one comprised entirely of cell phone footage/without commentary? I read up on that one a bit, and thought that was a really respectful and important way to present both the horror and resilience that took place that day.

Yes I believe so as I only saw portions. I will try to find further information on the documentary. So many stories that day from heartbreak to incredible relief.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You cannot have a debate with you guys without being labeled a racist, souless, skinhead akin to a holocaust denier. It’s truly remarkable. I tried to provide nuance but there is no nuance coming from your side. None at all in this thread. The posters claiming a genocide use fringe academics from backwater universities, then when provided with arguments that negate that criticism they do not engage with it while laying every ounce of blame on to Israel. Then we have you with your little blurbs of “eTnoH stATes aRE bAD” that are devoid of context given Israel is the only nation in this entire arabized region that holds free democratic elections where Arab and Jewish parties work together in government.

I really am done this time tho, this thread is a cesspool filled with virtue signallers who don’t believe the Palestinians have had any sort of hand in creating the horrible mess they are in. It’s all Israels fault, and even though when not even 1% of the civilian population has been killed there is a genocide happening.

Carry on with your mouth breathing takes, it does absolutely nothing to change anything on the ground. Israel will complete the war by Spring or Summer and hopefully a more peaceful chapter can emerge for the Palestinians. Maybe I will check back in here and see your tears after Hamas is finished.

The IDF are dropping 2,000 pound unguided bombs into civilian areas (which really just completely negates any speculation about "human shields") and literally burning food in areas of mass starvation while shouting racist slurs and writing they want to "destroy Gaza" on the walls. They're filming themselves doing it and posting it on social media, just to make it obvious that this behavior is not something their superiors would object to.

You don't even acknowledge this happening. You said that you have friends in the IDF, so who knows, maybe those are literally your friends doing that.

The IDF literally shot dead freed Israeli hostages waving a white flag. That's how much the IDF aren't even trying to save hostages. Many more hostages have died in the bombardment.

The IDF is just doing a genocide, Netanyahu and the government is doing a war crime, and all else about this attack is basically just propaganda. This is not what a "counter-terrorism operation" looks like.

To support the Israeli government, or defend them, or to make excuses for them is to support genocide.

The idea that the label of genocide is something you need academics to apply correctly in this case is just ludicrous, and you're being pathetic trying to argue something like that.

It's an ongoing genocide of a population that's 50% underaged, who were largely born into captivity, and who have no place to escape to even if they tried.

So yeah.

You're a supporter of extremely obvious genocide, proudly and vocally. If you feel like people don't respect your views, it's because your views are despicable and really the duty of people who still have their humanity is to tell you to stop being a genocide supporter and stop spewing genocide supporting propaganda.

[Language]

You know this is war, right? And just like in most wars, civilians usually pay a higher price. WW2 had approx 15million battle deaths, and something like 40million civilian deaths. Go down the list of wars and check out civilian deaths. You’d be hard pressed to find any where innocents did not pay a price. Is that right? Of course not. War is a dirty game.

The people yelling genocide, like yourself, live in some sort of idealistic fairly tale land, where Israel (unlike any other country in the world), is held to ridiculously high standards that no other country would be held to. I feel like you people expect Israel to go into hostile enemy territory, knocking on doors, kindly requesting Hamas operatives out to a tea party in the town square.

The killing of the hostages was a terrible tragedy and those soldiers should be discharged, and should not be involved in the war effort anymore. They’ll have to live with that friendly fire incident for the rest of their lives. There’s no excuse for that, and they did not follow the rules of engagement. Israel flat out came and said that. It doesn’t matter if that was a member of Hamas with their hands up. There’s been countless videos of Hamas operatives surrendering. They’re not being slaughtered.

Are you seriously taking that incident, and some other isolated incidents caught on video, and using that as a basis for the actions of the entire IDF? God forbid social media was around during any war going back 50-100 years. You’d think that every army, even Canada’s, was an immoral piece of garbage.

It’s laughable that people who have never been involved in any sort of war situation, can sit there on their keyboards, playing the moral high horse game.

Exchange between John Kirby and and reporter:

Reporter: "You seem to give the Israelis more of a benefit of the doubt than your own president...civilian casualties are mounting..."
Kirby: "They have published online maps of places where people can go or not go. That's basically telegraphing your punches! There's very few modern militaries in the world that would do that! I don't know that WE would do that!"


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[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

You know this is war, right? And just like in most wars, civilians usually pay a higher price. WW2 had approx 15million battle deaths, and something like 40million civilian deaths. Go down the list of wars and check out civilian deaths. You’d be hard pressed to find any where innocents did not pay a price. Is that right? Of course not. War is a dirty game.

The people yelling genocide, like yourself, live in some sort of idealistic fairly tale land, where Israel (unlike any other country in the world), is held to ridiculously high standards that no other country would be held to. I feel like you people expect Israel to go into hostile enemy territory, knocking on doors, kindly requesting Hamas operatives out to a tea party in the town square.

The killing of the hostages was a terrible tragedy and those soldiers should be discharged, and should not be involved in the war effort anymore. They’ll have to live with that friendly fire incident for the rest of their lives. There’s no excuse for that, and they did not follow the rules of engagement. Israel flat out came and said that. It doesn’t matter if that was a member of Hamas with their hands up. There’s been countless videos of Hamas operatives surrendering. They’re not being slaughtered.

Are you seriously taking that incident, and some other isolated incidents caught on video, and using that as a basis for the actions of the entire IDF? God forbid social media was around during any war going back 50-100 years. You’d think that every army, even Canada’s, was an immoral piece of garbage.

It’s laughable that people who have never been involved in any sort of war situation, can sit there on their keyboards, playing the moral high horse game.

Exchange between John Kirby and and reporter:

Reporter: "You seem to give the Israelis more of a benefit of the doubt than your own president...civilian casualties are mounting..."
Kirby: "They have published online maps of places where people can go or not go. That's basically telegraphing your punches! There's very few modern militaries in the world that would do that! I don't know that WE would do that!"


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This whole “war is hell, people die, context matters and these are all isolated incidents so stop playing the moral high horse game!” bit would probably land better if you hadn’t just recently said context doesn’t matter while ascribing the intent of one group to the entire world population in an effort to play the moral high horse game about some words people say.

I don’t know. I guess we’re supposed to believe it’s different when you sit behind your keyboard.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

. The killing of the hostages was a terrible tragedy and those soldiers should be discharged, and should not be involved in the war effort anymore. They’ll have to live with that friendly fire incident for the rest of their lives. There’s no excuse for that, and they did not follow the rules of engagement.

Yes it's a terrible tragedy. Agreed.

But how do you know they didn't follow "their" rules of engagement? How do you know "their" rules of engagement aren't shout "terrorist" at anyone waving a white flag before executing them because that is exactly what appears to have happened here.

Because this isn't an isolated incident where civilians have been shot in cold blood. Far from it.

Should the soldiers documented killing non Israeli civilians be discharged too or is it only own goal cases?

[Bagor]

Should these soldiers be discharged too? Or are they simply following "rules of engagement"? Is this different as the victims were non Israeli?

The shooting of a mother and daughter allegedly by an Israeli military sniper in a church compound in Gaza City was a “cold–blooded killing”, the most senior Catholic cleric in England has said.

Cardinal Vincent Nichols, the archbishop of Westminster, said the shooting did “nothing to further Israel’s right to defend itself”.

The two women were killed inside the Holy Family parish in Gaza City on Saturday, according to the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Most of Gaza’s Christian families have taken refuge in the compound since the start of the war.

Nahida Khalil Anton and her daughter Samar were shot as they walked to the sister’s convent, the patriarchate said. One was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety.

“Seven more people were shot and wounded as they tried to protect others inside the church compound. No warning was given, no notification was provided. They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the parish, where there are no belligerents.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...incent-nichols

[Language]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Should these soldiers be discharged too? Or are they simply following "rules of engagement"? Is this different as the victims were non Israeli?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...incent-nichols

Yes - they should be discharged too, absolutely. Any sort of direct killing of non-combatants where rules of engagement are not followed, should be treated similarly; whether it’s a Gazan or Israeli hostage inadvertently killed.


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[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

Yes - they should be discharged too, absolutely. Any sort of direct killing of non-combatants where rules of engagement are not followed, should be treated similarly; whether it’s a Gazan or Israeli hostage inadvertently killed.

Agreed. In an ideal moral world.

But you and I both don't know what their rules of engagement are.
But what we do know is that their leaders have been calling for a complete annihilation and destruction of Gaza and its people.

Hardly a "rules of engagement" promoting restraint and caution. Soldiers would probably have a strong case for unlawful dismissal.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1736415962017255681

[Firebot]

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/961

Most of the questions asked in this last quarter of 2023 revolved around the October 7 offensive and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war and ground invasion of the Gaza Strip. It also covered the debate about the future of the Gaza Strip after the war and the Palestinian perception of the positions of the various relevant countries and actors. Findings indicate that a majority of the respondents believe that Hamas' decision to carry out the offensive is correct, and believe that the attack came in response to “settler attacks on Al-Aqsa Mosque and West Bank residents, and for the release of Palestinian prisoners.”

The overwhelming majority of respondents say that they have not seen videos from international or social media showing atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians that day, such as the killing of women and children in their homes. Indeed, more than 90% believe that Hamas fighters did not commit the atrocities contained in these videos. When asked what is or is not allowed in war, under international humanitarian law, the findings indicate that the vast majority believes that attacking or killing civilians in their homes is not permissible. The majority (except in the Gaza Strip) also believe that taking civilians as hostages or prisoners of war is also not permissible.

Indeed, a large majority believes that Hamas will emerge victorious from this war. A majority also says Hamas will resume control over the Gaza Strip after the war.

Humanitarian conditions in the Gaza Strip:

Only 44% of Gazans say they have enough food and water for a day or two and 56% say they do not.
When they need food or water, only one third of Gazans say they can reach a place where they can have access to assistance while two thirds say they cannot.
Almost two thirds (64%) of Gazan respondents say a member of their family have been killed or injured during the current war in Gaza; 36% say none of their family members have been killed or injured.

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Norman Finkelstein is a notorious grifter. It again this shows how indoctrinated you are if this is who you are listening too. I also will not watch a click bait rage debate where the Pro Israel side of the equation is not represented by a professor on the topic but by pedophile lawyer Alan Dershowitz. If you think whatever you just posted is a legitimate discourse on the topic you are far more indoctrinated than i thought.

To be fair, the accusation was recanted and the lawsuit discontinued. Unless you are referring to another matter.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/08/us/al...ped/index.html

[FlameOn]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1737113850569424972

[Bagor]

^. So strange.

Been a few days now and you'd think that would be fairly big news yet none of the large, main western networks like the beeb, CNN or the broadsheets like NYT. The Guardian etc are reporting this story.

Why could that be?

Latest Genocide numbers.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1737172106809331857

[Harry Lime]

There are over 163 press headquarters in a place as small as the gaza strip?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Bagor

^. So strange.

Been a few days now and you'd think that would be fairly big news yet none of the large, main western networks like the beeb, CNN or the broadsheets like NYT. The Guardian etc are reporting this story.

Why could that be?

Latest Genocide numbers.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1737172106809331857

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...7d69f921805d2e

It took 10 seconds to find by searching Ahmad Al-Kahlot CNN

Are you actually insinuating the video confession is fake? That is quite a bold and weighted statement.

Considering CNN has used Ahmad Al-Kahlot as a humanitarian spokesperson on multiple occasions in recent weeks without able to validate the conditions of the confession it stands to reason they will report on the video release prudently.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

^. So strange.

Been a few days now and you'd think that would be fairly big news yet none of the large, main western networks like the beeb, CNN or the broadsheets like NYT. The Guardian etc are reporting this story.

Why could that be?

Latest Genocide numbers.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1737172106809331857

Maybe because it is pretty much common knowledge that Hamas uses hospitals? It was reported on several weeks ago.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ng-2023-11-23/

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...7d69f921805d2e

Are you actually insinuating the video confession is fake? That is quite a bold and weighted statement.

I am suggesting given the skepticism and overall distrust the world has for the word of Israel and the IDF given their track record of having zero shame when it comes to lying the truth and their absence of any morals when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians that the video should be treated with a healthy degree of caution.

Indeed, in that little unheadlined buried piece CNN themselves in a non bold and non weighted effect statement suggests exercising the same caution to the conclusion.

It is not clear whether Al-Kahlot was speaking under duress, nor whether he has had access to a lawyer at any time since his arrest on December 12.

But it's quite telling in your attitude that you imply that anyone like myself or CNN suggests caution regarding the video has a weighted pov. Is this expression of caution antisemitism? It's hard to keep up these days.

This should be a quite significant story. I presume it's headline news in the Jerusalem Post and the likes. Quite bizarre it's currently being ignored for the most part elsewhere.