Calgary schools

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by The Goon

I suppose what's got me worried most of all is that I'm in the west end of town where two of these starter schools are being built, and I've heard stories from parents close by about some of the issues they face.

We're going to be attending a private school expo this weekend in town. It's something I wouldn't have imagined thinking about before, but we want to consider all options.

I'd be surprised if you could get your kid into a private school for kindergarten next year without previously having been on a wait-list or having an older sibling at the school already.

[The Goon]

To be fair, these are all second-hand from other parents, but things I've heard:

-overcrowded classes
-not getting in the closest school
-incessant fundraising
-communication from teachers poor
-facilities: libraries, gyms, cafeterias having to be turned into classes (this is more from someone ranting online)

And when I look at the numbers, sending my kid to the Calgary French and International School (our closest private school) is cheaper than his current daycare costs.

I understand that I'm buying into a lot of the negativity that I see, but I want to explore everything before accepting a "good enough" scenario for my kid's education. That's why I asked the question here - to gauge if things are that bad or if it's overblown.

[Ashartus]

The school for my community is over-full and they only actually take students from one half of the community (and even then it's not a guarantee - I know someone who bought a house across the street from the school and didn't get in). Not a huge issue for me since my kids go to French Immersion anyhow but we wouldn't have been able to get them in the local public school.

The French immersion school that one of my kids goes to and the other will be starting at next year was on the verge of closure a few years back but now is expected to be capped within the next 2 years - it's almost completely full and no more room for portables. The school where my wife teaches has had to convert the library to a classroom and are trying to decrease the number of students.

So yes I think there's a definite need for more schools. I think they need to be better thought out with a modular design/portables to allow for easy growth and contraction, along with plans for eventual partial conversion to other uses (e.g. community centre) if attendance drops.

[The Goon]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I'd be surprised if you could get your kid into a private school for kindergarten next year without previously having been on a wait-list or having an older sibling at the school already.

And that's something I need to understand as well, which is why I'm going to that school expo on Sunday.

I'm probably panicking based on some conversations at a kid's birthday party yesterday and this announcement and the reaction today. F%$#n helicopter dad.

[rd_aaron]

Originally Posted by Rathji

He used the word many, which means he likely has no source other than some guy who sits next to him on the bus, or the guy across the alley who vented about his idiot kid one day when he was drunk, blaming it on the teacher. The fact that he indicated NE schools, as though people there had a corner on the disabilities he listed, serves to further indicate as much.

Of course, I could be making it all up.

I worded it poorly. I was referring to ESL being a reality in the NE. The other learning disabilities are issues for every teacher everywhere.

My wife is an elementary teacher who has taught at several schools in the NE (and currently does), so that's my source. It was a hypothetical classroom to make someone think that maybe the classroom you grew up in with 30 kids wasn't the same as every classroom in the city.

My wife's current classroom only has 20 kids and it is around (IIRC) 80% ESL, so I wasn't exagerrating anything.

EDIT: I asked my wife. She said 90%+ speak English as a second language in her class.

[shermanator]

You mean, people are moving to new communities without schools and then complaining that schools in their new community are not being built quick enough? That's shocking. The reality is that it is difficult for any government, to keep tax increases as low as possible, while building new infrastructure to deal with 30-40k new residents every year.

I have no idea if this would be realistic, but perhaps the city should require developers to build certain infrastructure, such as schools, police stations/fire halls etc as communities are being developed? Add the cost of building those schools into the price of the home.

Want to live in a shiny new community without any existing infrastructure? Okay, it'll cost you a little extra since we have to build schools too.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by shermanator

You mean, people are moving to new communities without schools and then complaining that schools in their new community are not being built quick enough? That's shocking.

I agree wholeheartedly! We moved to Bridlewood because of the brand new Elementary school, we started looking when it was announced, however we didn't move until it was already under construction, our daughter started school there the second year it was open.

we have friends that moved to Silverado the next year and now that their daughter is 1 year away from starting school they are part of the "when are we getting a school, this is ridiculous crowd. It's hard to tell them but they made the decision to move there knowing the community didn't have a school

Side note, I would absolutely move to Silverado if they get elementary and junior high schools

[Slava]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Based on the numbers from last year for my kids school there were three grade four classes with 74 students (~25 per class.)

Serious question, is that too many? I am sure that when I was in elementary our class sizes were that big and people were complaining. I remember some that were as large as 35-40 kids in later grades. Just seems like the new normal (although that was a generation ago!)

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Slava

Serious question, is that too many? I am sure that when I was in elementary our class sizes were that big and people were complaining. I remember some that were as large as 35-40 kids in later grades. Just seems like the new normal (although that was a generation ago!)

A friend of mine is a vice-principal in town, and he contends that it is not class size, but teacher quality that has the greatest bearing on educational experience.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Slava

Serious question, is that too many? I am sure that when I was in elementary our class sizes were that big and people were complaining. I remember some that were as large as 35-40 kids in later grades. Just seems like the new normal (although that was a generation ago!)

I think 25 is appropriate. I think anywhere between 22 and 26 kids is probably good.

[psicodude]

I live in Cranston (I don't care what you say, I love it there) and I welcome any relief at this point. Both schools in my neighbourhood are now capped and there is a lottery system in place every spring for new students going into Kindergarten. Seriously. Cranston public school is grades K-4 and there are 620 students. It's a complete gong show with large hallways now being called "learning commons" and things like that.

As for the question about simply adding more and more portables on, the issue is that there are rules in regards to the number of washrooms, HVAC, etc. per student. There is a finite limit to how many portables can be attached to a facility.

I think this is decent stop-gap solution and, short of making developers pay for new schools, the only way to deal with the massive growth in Alberta.

[81flames]

I don't think 25 students is unreasonable, but if 3-4 of those students have codes or behavioral problems that's when problems arise. My sister teaches elementary and spends a large portion of her day dealing with a small percentage of her class. This takes her attention away from the rest of the kids. It's frustrating because the support isn't there for teachers in situations like this. Instead of helping the child that is struggling with reading she is focused on the kid that's busy stealing others property (daily struggle for her this year).
A large portion of my friends and family are teachers. I have no idea how they get through their day without snapping. Lack of resources, lack of support, and absolutely nasty parents make it a very hard career. On the surface, teachers seem to have an easy ride, but it's an unreal amount of time and work. On top of that, they have to see some horrible situations that some children have to live with which puts a real emotional toll on them as well.

[Nage Waza]

We moved to an expensive area of the city and the school in our zone is at capacity. There appears to be no elementary school planned at any time for the west end of the city. They are basically leaving us no choice but to spend 10k to 20k annually for school.

We lucked out and won the lottery to get in the school, but those that didn't are bused to one of the worst schools in the city.

The worst part of this 'backup' school? The more expensive part of the area is bused to a highly rated school past my house, while my side of the area is bused past their houses to a worse school. There is clear corruption involved to have school buses driving opposite and longer directions.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by shermanator

I have no idea if this would be realistic, but perhaps the city should require developers to build certain infrastructure, such as schools, police stations/fire halls etc as communities are being developed? Add the cost of building those schools into the price of the home.

Want to live in a shiny new community without any existing infrastructure? Okay, it'll cost you a little extra since we have to build schools too.

I've been saying this for ages here - someone (ie the City - Bunk?) should put together an interactive map so that when you click on a neighborhood it shows:

- What are the current feeder schools (Pub/Sep)
- At the schools at capacity? If so, where are they being bus'ed to?
- Schools, Projected date of school completion
- Nearest Firehalls / Police station - date of completion if planned for.
- Nearest Pool/Arena/Rec Center - date of completion if planned for.
- Nearest Library - date of completion if planned for.

This would be invaluable to so many people while house hunting - I've known so many people that bought that didn't really research the above before buying. I'd like to think those areas with none of the above would be less attractive to buyers and the market would vote with their feet, forcing developers to pony up for the above.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

A friend of mine is a vice-principal in town, and he contends that it is not class size, but teacher quality that has the greatest bearing on educational experience.

The board of education rates school based on the number of English as a second language kids and family income. The less ESL and the higher the family income correlates with greater grades.

My friends that are teachers (two of them) bring two different perspectives: One teaches in a very low income area and she has to deal with kids not being fed and issues of abuse of kids at home, the other teacher has parents that are involved and helping manage the never ending events at the school.

School just started for my son, we have had three different events involving parents and students. The events were packed, volunteers made these huge 'parties' that really made school a positive experience for the kids.

[BigNumbers]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The board of education rates school based on the number of English as a second language kids and family income. The less ESL and the higher the family income correlates with greater grades.

My friends that are teachers (two of them) bring two different perspectives: One teaches in a very low income area and she has to deal with kids not being fed and issues of abuse of kids at home, the other teacher has parents that are involved and helping manage the never ending events at the school.

School just started for my son, we have had three different events involving parents and students. The events were packed, volunteers made these huge 'parties' that really made school a positive experience for the kids.

You're on the other side of 17th Ave and about 85th Street, aren't you... I hear similar complaints from residents of that 'cast-off' section of the west side.

[Calgary14]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well I have really only experienced one school as a parent, but I would say relax. Our school isn't over-crowded at all, and there really aren't that many issues that are any different from when we were young and students ourselves.

Frankly, I feel like being an elementary school teacher might be the most forgiving and have the lightest schedule of anyone in the free world at times. I mean class at our school is from 8:25-11:45 (3h20min) and then 12:45 to 3:15 (3h 30min). You probably see where I'm going with this....but that's 6hr 50min if a teacher taught every period, all day. The marking at this level is either non-existent or incredibly simple. I feel like you could breeze through say 20 math worksheets in half an hour. I'm sure that there is some prep time involved, but they also have no school every Friday afternoon. So if somone was reasonably organized it should be pretty easy to work that horrific 6 hours a day.
(Braces for cover because of the impending "you have no idea" that is surely coming)

My wife is a teacher and she works about 60 hours per week. On top of the class time there's prep work, marking, extra curricular etc. Plus open houses, sports (coaching), parent-teacher meetings, creating individual learning plans for kids with learning disorders, staff meetings, etc all on top of the usual work day. Then there's the emails with parents, updating of the class website, etc done on weekends and evenings. It all adds up and she usually works 6 days a week. This is not uncommon and most other teachers do the same.

The burnout rate for new teachers is one of the highest of all professions.

If you're looking for low pay (relative to hours worked) and high stress - teaching is great for that.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Slava

Frankly, I feel like being an elementary school teacher might be the most forgiving and have the lightest schedule of anyone in the free world at times. I mean class at our school is from 8:25-11:45 (3h20min) and then 12:45 to 3:15 (3h 30min). You probably see where I'm going with this....but that's 6hr 50min if a teacher taught every period, all day. The marking at this level is either non-existent or incredibly simple. I feel like you could breeze through say 20 math worksheets in half an hour. I'm sure that there is some prep time involved, but they also have no school every Friday afternoon. So if somone was reasonably organized it should be pretty easy to work that horrific 6 hours a day.
(Braces for cover because of the impending "you have no idea" that is surely coming)

You're a smart guy, so I'm willing to post a reply to this as I believe there is some amount of hope that I can provide some information to help turn around your view of my elementary colleagues. I hate to say it - but your point of view couldn't be much more wrong than it is.

OK. Before I get going, I want to assure you (and anyone else who may be interested in this conversation) that I love my job. I would happily choose it again if given the opportunity and frankly can't really imagine what else I would do if not teaching. I know that I get some great benefits (decent pay, nice vacation time, excellent job security, good health and dental coverage, all that stuff). I also know that I earn those great benefits.

There are a couple of things that I've never really seen addressed to satisfaction when people bring up things like you've done here.

1. When you hear teachers (or teachers' loved ones and friends) describe what they go through each day and the workload that it brings, do you think that we are lying?
2. I appreciate that you acknowledge at least 7 hours of work a day in the life of a teacher, but I would point out that those 7 hours are solid - and very busy - work. I don't sit down while I'm teaching, unless it's next to a kid to help them with some of their work. I don't get a chance to surf onto CP. I don't get to stop by my friend's desk to have a quick chat. Heck, I don't even get to go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it. There are some days, and I am not exaggerating in this point in the least, where I don't have a conversation with an adult while at work.

Here's some of the daily/weekly work of a teacher that you are missing:


First of all, that "Math worksheet" doesn't appear out of nowhere. At absolute minimum, you need to find it and copy it. While it's a small amount of time, it takes time.


Second, you don't just get to find one "Math worksheet" to hand out to your students. In my Math class this year, there are students whose abilities in Math range anywhere from approximately a grade 4 level to well beyond a grade 10 level. I need to prepare personalized, individual work to each of them that meets their learning needs.


Third, at the elementary level, that "Math worksheet" may well be an activity that would work for 20 minutes or so of the day. We still need to plan for the remaining 5 hours and 45 minutes of the teaching day. I'll give you that teachers usually get daily prep time. When I was in University, the instructors pointed out that the ratio of prep time to class activity time was about 1:1, so for every 1 minute of in-class time, 1 minute of prep time was required. In my experience, that hasn't quite been accurate, but I think it would be fair to say that 0.5:1 is pretty reasonable. Given that you feel that ~6 hours of a teacher's day is spent teaching, that works out to 3 hours of prep time. Please note, that when I talk about prep time, I'm talking about everything that goes into planning and organizing a lesson (marking, other assessing, creating and organizing activities, gathering materials and so on).



Fourth, elementary teachers are nearly always considered generalists that teach, at minimum, across the core subject areas (English, Social Studies, Math, and Science). In many cases, they are also responsible for the Fine Arts programming (Art, Drama, Music), and in some cases are further responsible to teach Phys Ed. That is a huge cross section of subject matter to know how to teach. Yes, it's generally fairly straightforward work for an adult, but teaching it to someone else who has no experience in the area is another matter entirely.


Fifth, you have to add some time spent at lunch as required supervision time that we all have to do. I would say this probably adds about 15-20 minutes per day of work. So - even the lunch time isn't necessarily fully ours to rest, decompress, and socialize with colleagues.


Sixth, at this point, we've not dealt with any of the so-called 'extra' work that teachers do. Field trips would be a big source of additional planning time. The CBE has done a great job of streamlining this process over the course of the last couple of years, but every single time I plan a field trip for my students, I have to assume that the work involved is going to take about 6 hours of work.


Seventh, we've still not communicated any of the assessment information we've gathered for our students to parents. Report cards need to be written; Individual Program Plans for students with special needs need to be written; sometimes I just need to send emails home because a student failed to submit work, or because their parents want me to communicate with their tutors, or they plain would like to check in to see how things are going.


Eighth, those Friday afternoons that we aren't teaching aren't exactly work free. These are assignable hours that our Principals can, well, assign to specific tasks and nearly always end up being used for various meetings. I would agree - times like those when students aren't in the busy are less stressful, but they can hardly be qualified as 'not work'.


Ninth, many teachers give up personal time to run extra-curricular activities for their students, ranging from clubs to sports teams. This further takes away from our planning time, which ends up costing time with our families and friends. We don't get paid for this work. We could earn the exact same amount not doing this work as we earn for doing it, and yet, many teachers engage in these activities.


Tenth, we've not even mentioned the stress that can come along from teaching kids, big or small. In many ways, I find the younger ones and their constant need for attention more trying than older students. We put a lot of care into our work - I get emotionally invested in my students almost as if they were my own children. It brings me joy to witness their successes, but I feel just as much stress and frustration as they do when things just don't work. Of course, there are always times when some kid has an awful home life and it just breaks your heart.



Anyway, I'm sure I left out some huge chunk of my day, but I thought I'd take some time to point out the flaws in your argument. I love my job - I really do - but people saying disrespectful things like what you did above are one of the huge negatives in my line of work. Everyone's been to school so everyone thinks they know what goes into it, when few really do. Teachers are incredibly hard working individuals who put a lot of love into their work. We aren't lying about our workloads.

[Antithesis]

And as if my post above isn't actually long enough, I suppose that on reflection the ratio of 0.5:1 prep time to teaching time might be a bit high. Certainly for teachers new to the profession, when stress is likely at it's highest, that number would be accurate. It's lower for experienced teachers, but I still spend about 2 hours a day preparing for lessons.

[taco.vidal]

So teachers face the same job realities that many other professions do. Yet those other professions don't have the same job security (nearly impossible to get fired as a teacher), great holidays and great pensions among other benefits.

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You're a smart guy, so I'm willing to post a reply to this as I believe there is some amount of hope that I can provide some information to help turn around your view of my elementary colleagues. I hate to say it - but your point of view couldn't be much more wrong than it is.

OK. Before I get going, I want to assure you (and anyone else who may be interested in this conversation) that I love my job. I would happily choose it again if given the opportunity and frankly can't really imagine what else I would do if not teaching. I know that I get some great benefits (decent pay, nice vacation time, excellent job security, good health and dental coverage, all that stuff). I also know that I earn those great benefits.

There are a couple of things that I've never really seen addressed to satisfaction when people bring up things like you've done here.

1. When you hear teachers (or teachers' loved ones and friends) describe what they go through each day and the workload that it brings, do you think that we are lying?
2. I appreciate that you acknowledge at least 7 hours of work a day in the life of a teacher, but I would point out that those 7 hours are solid - and very busy - work. I don't sit down while I'm teaching, unless it's next to a kid to help them with some of their work. I don't get a chance to surf onto CP. I don't get to stop by my friend's desk to have a quick chat. Heck, I don't even get to go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it. There are some days, and I am not exaggerating in this point in the least, where I don't have a conversation with an adult while at work.

Here's some of the daily/weekly work of a teacher that you are missing:


First of all, that "Math worksheet" doesn't appear out of nowhere. At absolute minimum, you need to find it and copy it. While it's a small amount of time, it takes time.


Second, you don't just get to find one "Math worksheet" to hand out to your students. In my Math class this year, there are students whose abilities in Math range anywhere from approximately a grade 4 level to well beyond a grade 10 level. I need to prepare personalized, individual work to each of them that meets their learning needs.


Third, at the elementary level, that "Math worksheet" may well be an activity that would work for 20 minutes or so of the day. We still need to plan for the remaining 5 hours and 45 minutes of the teaching day. I'll give you that teachers usually get daily prep time. When I was in University, the instructors pointed out that the ratio of prep time to class activity time was about 1:1, so for every 1 minute of in-class time, 1 minute of prep time was required. In my experience, that hasn't quite been accurate, but I think it would be fair to say that 0.5:1 is pretty reasonable. Given that you feel that ~6 hours of a teacher's day is spent teaching, that works out to 3 hours of prep time. Please note, that when I talk about prep time, I'm talking about everything that goes into planning and organizing a lesson (marking, other assessing, creating and organizing activities, gathering materials and so on).



Fourth, elementary teachers are nearly always considered generalists that teach, at minimum, across the core subject areas (English, Social Studies, Math, and Science). In many cases, they are also responsible for the Fine Arts programming (Art, Drama, Music), and in some cases are further responsible to teach Phys Ed. That is a huge cross section of subject matter to know how to teach. Yes, it's generally fairly straightforward work for an adult, but teaching it to someone else who has no experience in the area is another matter entirely.


Fifth, you have to add some time spent at lunch as required supervision time that we all have to do. I would say this probably adds about 15-20 minutes per day of work. So - even the lunch time isn't necessarily fully ours to rest, decompress, and socialize with colleagues.


Sixth, at this point, we've not dealt with any of the so-called 'extra' work that teachers do. Field trips would be a big source of additional planning time. The CBE has done a great job of streamlining this process over the course of the last couple of years, but every single time I plan a field trip for my students, I have to assume that the work involved is going to take about 6 hours of work.


Seventh, we've still not communicated any of the assessment information we've gathered for our students to parents. Report cards need to be written; Individual Program Plans for students with special needs need to be written; sometimes I just need to send emails home because a student failed to submit work, or because their parents want me to communicate with their tutors, or they plain would like to check in to see how things are going.


Eighth, those Friday afternoons that we aren't teaching aren't exactly work free. These are assignable hours that our Principals can, well, assign to specific tasks and nearly always end up being used for various meetings. I would agree - times like those when students aren't in the busy are less stressful, but they can hardly be qualified as 'not work'.


Ninth, many teachers give up personal time to run extra-curricular activities for their students, ranging from clubs to sports teams. This further takes away from our planning time, which ends up costing time with our families and friends. We don't get paid for this work. We could earn the exact same amount not doing this work as we earn for doing it, and yet, many teachers engage in these activities.


Tenth, we've not even mentioned the stress that can come along from teaching kids, big or small. In many ways, I find the younger ones and their constant need for attention more trying than older students. We put a lot of care into our work - I get emotionally invested in my students almost as if they were my own children. It brings me joy to witness their successes, but I feel just as much stress and frustration as they do when things just don't work. Of course, there are always times when some kid has an awful home life and it just breaks your heart.



Anyway, I'm sure I left out some huge chunk of my day, but I thought I'd take some time to point out the flaws in your argument. I love my job - I really do - but people saying disrespectful things like what you did above are one of the huge negatives in my line of work. Everyone's been to school so everyone thinks they know what goes into it, when few really do. Teachers are incredibly hard working individuals who put a lot of love into their work. We aren't lying about our workloads.

Originally Posted by Antithesis

And as if my post above isn't actually long enough, I suppose that on reflection the ratio of 0.5:1 prep time to teaching time might be a bit high. Certainly for teachers new to the profession, when stress is likely at it's highest, that number would be accurate. It's lower for experienced teachers, but I still spend about 2 hours a day preparing for lessons.