YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[karl262]

I don't buy the argument that some are posing here saying it should be shut down because if you want girly pics then there are other places on the internet you can go. The entire off topic forum should be closed down by this logic because I can find cat gifs and political discussions elsewhere too.

I like the eclectic mix that is the off topic forum.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

The models voluntarily posed for the photos. These arent creep shots or pictures stilen from hacked accounts. You dont think the models know that men and even women are going to critique, oggle, fantasize to, etc these photos. Clearly some of the posters in this thread have a problem with the photos even though the models dont.
Stay out of thread if you dont want to see it. Users are respectful enough to not have nude avatars etc. Do your heads explode when you open a magazine and see add? How about ads in the mall or commercials on tv?

Hey! You didn't read the thread! You know how I can tell?

[photon]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

The models voluntarily posed for the photos.

That may (or may not) be the case, and there's lots of discussion to be had about social pressures and expectations and such, but that really isn't relevant to the question of sexism and misogyny in the YLYL thread and across the forums.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Hey! You didn't read the thread! You know how I can tell?

Psst...there's one right above you, too.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

And why can't they just use Google image search or the thousands of other sites to do so without alienating a small but important part of the community?

The thread is more convenient. It's one stop shopping and knowing it's moderated and clean means I can check it out at work at times or at home without fear of repercussions.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's one stop shopping

And that, right there, is the problem in a nutshell.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way. But it is what you said ... and the idea that women are objects to be 'shopped' for is exactly what threads like that one propagate.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

And that, right there, is the problem in a nutshell.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way. But it is what you said ... and the idea that women are objects to be 'shopped' for is exactly what threads like that one propagate.

Oh my God!

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The thread is more convenient. It's one stop shopping and knowing it's moderated and clean means I can check it out at work at times or at home without fear of repercussions.

Lol I really want to know where you work where your boss will glance at your screen and be like "OMG phew, I thought you were looking at chicks in the nude, thank god they're in their G-string"

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by photon

Just because it's permissible doesn't mean it is desirable. I'd rather CP be at the forefront of promoting equality rather than being the place people go to when everywhere else doesn't accept them (i.e. racist, homophobic, sexist are just a few examples).

The fact we are having this discussion proves it is at the forefront. The bottom line is that viewing the thread is 100% optional. If you are simply an avid hockey fan you really don't even have to venture to the Off Topic Forum. There are a variety of thread topics in this forum whether it be beer, scotch, pizza, violent video games, violent movies, etc that all have moral implications. We all know there's a connection between alcohol and domestic abuse but we can have threads on beer. There's very little evidence that men looking at picture of women in swimsuits has any connection to violence on women yet posters want that thread shut down. To me it's just a small minority that simply wants to impose their views on others. I have no problems with keeping it clean but shut it down?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

And that, right there, is the problem in a nutshell.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way. But it is what you said ... and the idea that women are objects to be 'shopped' for is exactly what threads like that one propagate.

LOL you can't be serious.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL you can't be serious.

I'm actually quite serious.

Like I said, I know you didn't use the phrase to imply that you're shopping for women. I get that. But in the context of this discussion, to talk describe a thread whose only real purpose is to show the female form as "one stop shopping" - that strikes me as at the very least a poor choice of words.

That's all I was pointing out; how the careless use of language can be hurtful, even (or perhaps especially) with regards to a subject like sexual objectification. It's so common that we often don't even realize how we're using the language, and what we're really implying.

Again, not anything personal against you, EE, and no offence was meant. I have no doubt that you meant the phrase as literally just a turn of phrase. It just happened to really jump out to me as an example of situations where often, we don't even think about objectification as an issue. It's so common, it's often not even part of our collective consciousness.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The fact we are having this discussion proves it is at the forefront.

I know lots of other sites that have put in rules about sexist/racist/homophobic comments and content so I don't think we're at the forefront, and that's probably unrealistic to want. But ahead of the curve would still be good.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The bottom line is that viewing the thread is 100% optional.

Actually that's the top line, the bottom line is the policies we decide we want to have and if that thread would fit in them or not.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I have no problems with keeping it clean but shut it down?

The actual fate of the thread doesn't matter that much I don't think.

[photon]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

That's all I was pointing out; how the careless use of language can be hurtful, even (or perhaps especially) with regards to a subject like sexual objectification. It's so common that we often don't even realize how we're using the language, and what we're really implying.

Exactly, the language developed in an environment that marginalized women and we use it in ways that continue to do so even if that's not our intent or we would strongly disagree with any suggestion that women shouldn't be equal.

In the car thread a model of car was described as it's too bad that it's seen as a car for women. The implicit suggestion that since women want the car that harms the reputation of the car isn't intended I'm sure, but it's there.

That whole "throw like a girl" commercial I posted a while back is a powerful message.

Each of those things alone aren't a big deal, but when its pervasive and unrelenting it's a problem.

My wife's a visible minority so she gets it from two directions.

It's the same as people saying "that's gay, you're gay" to mean something or someone is bad.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Psst...there's one right above you, too.

Why would you say that? Are you assuming that I don't understand that this thread is about the mistreatment of women in YLYL and if that's something CP wants to be a part of?

Lots of the anti-YLYL thread posts have pointed out you can get girly pics elsewhere. So what? That doesn't solve anything and all I'm saying is it's a moot point.

Being condescending is mistreating people too.

Spoiler!

condescending means talking down to someone FYI

[Eastern Girl]

I voted to get rid of the thread, because I think it adds to the dissemination of those types of pictures and comments in other threads. I've seen a number of times within the Funny/Cool pic thread, "I posted this in the Hot chick thread, I think it belongs here too," and then we see a bouncing boob GIF or a bikini picture, asses flapping around, whatever other girlie picture/GIF and then that's followed by all the 'bang/would not bang' comments and the post gets 80 thanks. Other posters see the 'thanks' that post gets and they want 'thanks,' so they toss up more pics or make more comments. I have already said this, but it's not a simple case of "Don't like it? Don't look at it!" It's everywhere. And frankly, why should we look away? I'm willing to take responsibility for contributing to the current state, because I have looked away when I probably should have been saying something.

So, here is what I will say: I have thick skin. I've grown up with brothers. I have lots of guy friends. I can make a joke and I can take a joke. Having said that, I have put up with a lot. There were times where I held my tongue and there were times where I spoke up. This is an issue that is very personal and very emotional for me, and I am sure other women. The fact that some might dismiss our argument because there are only a few of us saying it is really disappointing. It's also disappointing to see the men arguing in favour of curbing the sexism throughout the board being dismissed as simply trying to be our white knights. Perhaps instead of running them down, you might start to think there might actually be an issue. Respect us and them enough to really think about what you and others post about women.

I don't know what people think of me as a poster. I don't know what my reputation is, but I would hope my reputation on the board is enough that it might make someone think that if I am saying there's a problem, there might be reason enough to think there is a problem and that I, and the other ladies indicating there's a problem, are not just all on our periods.

I am a reasonably intelligent person, but I cannot see why this is being met with such derision. I like hockey. I like talking about it. I like being on a message board. Why should I not be welcome here? Why is what we are asking for so horrible? Honestly, I don't get it.

[JiriHrdina]

I've held back my opinion, and not voted, but will now weigh in.
Similar to Photon, I was never fully comfortable with the thread - but looked at it myself admittedly from time to time.

But after reading the POV of some of our female posters, and then going and looking at the thread again - boy - it is hard to justify keeping it.

Trying to look at the thread from their perspective certainly causes one more than just pause for thought about its existence.

The discussion is about more than just that - but if we want to be progressive in this area - it certainly is the most tangible and real example of what our approach is.

Getting rid of it would say something good about who we are and who we want to be.
Keeping it would say something not so good about who we are and who we want to be.

[photon]

Am I the only mod that's actually posted in the thread?

[Izzle]

I voted to get rid of the thread. There are various other forums that have a strict policy regarding the matter. I personally feel that if this forum were held to the same standard, then the YLYL thread would cease to exist.

Reading the comments from female posters really highlights how pervasive comments can get. Yeah, I get that if "you dont like it, dont look at it", but when it seeps into other threads, then it becomes a problem.

[bubbsy]

if it is agreed that the thread is removed, would the list of questionable GIFs involving women in the PGTs also be made against the rules?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The thread is more convenient. It's one stop shopping and knowing it's moderated and clean means I can check it out at work at times or at home without fear of repercussions.

To put the same in other words, the YLYL thread is actively encouraging / enabling you to do more girlie pic oogling than you would otherwise do.

I get why you'd want to keep it then, as it does serve an actual purpose for you, but for me that's just another reason to shut it down.

It's not like it's going to end, ever, but for me it's not something I think CP needs to contribute to.