I must not be the only person who believes the only way to defeat ISIS or Hamas or any other government funded on ideological violence is to eliminate the conditions which allow for them to grow and survive.
Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, loss of loved ones all give hateful violent people a foot hold in a society.
It would never happen, could never happen, but if Isreal dropped money and food and negotiated a solution that involved sharing prosperity and place instead of dropping 40 bombs an hour or whatever it is then Palestinians would march anyone involved in Hamas to be detained tried and jailed.
Instead, they have killed 10 thousand, and will kill as many more in a month and more still after that. Then once nothing is left but a pile of rubble, they will build mansions and gardens for new settlers and double down a police state on the remaining Palestinian population who will live with Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, and loss of loved ones.
Keeping in mind that Hamas has openly said that caring for the needs of their people isn't their responsibility, any war on poverty in Gaza has to start with the defeat of Hamas.
Gaza receives billion in aid almost every year (averaged about $1.5 billion per year since 1994) and over $8 billion in aid in 2021 alone, mostly from the West. Part of that aid includes basic wages for people who were civil servants but no longer work because Hamas has no actual interest in governing. On top of that, Israel had issued 10,000 work permit for Gazans to work in Israel to bring income into Gaza.
For all that aid, they had very little to show for it. The water treatment system was stripped for parts by Hamas to build rockets. Nice hospitals were built, with connections to the underground tunnel system so that Hamas could use them as shelter and for stealing UN provided fuel and supplies. There is no solution to poverty in Gaza while Hamas is in charge.
Honestly, I am pretty sick of the human toll this is taking on Gazans. I would love to wake up tomorrow and hear that there is a ceasefire and it is all over. Presumably that would also mean the hostages were released as well, and Hamas is defeated.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to FlamesAddiction For This Useful Post:
Hey, new rule: Can the guys who support Israel's military operations in Gaza quit making stuff up? For the people who just want fewer dead people and lives ruined, it's annoying having to reply to hogwash over and over. If you have good points, just articulate them honestly and if they're strong they'll stand on their own. You didn't need to lie, gaslight and pretend the counterpoints being made don't exist.
There's no gymnastics. We've said it needs to go guerilla and covert. Carpet bombing civilians - while a good idea in your mind for whatever reason - is a little distasteful to thoughtful people.
I think we all want the same thing. The people in Gaza need help NOW, and that means taking out Hamas as soon as possible. I am certainly no army specialist, but perhaps it may require a combination of precision bombing, street by street guerrilla fighting, and covert operation, all working together, to accomplish the main objective in a reasonable amount of time.
I think I read where Israel intends to set up field hospitals to help the Palestinians, while all this fighting is going on.
Last edited by flamesfever; 11-15-2023 at 06:28 PM.
Keeping in mind that Hamas has openly said that caring for the needs of their people isn't their responsibility, any war on poverty in Gaza has to start with the defeat of Hamas.
Gaza receives billion in aid almost every year (averaged about $1.5 billion per year since 1994) and over $8 billion in aid in 2021 alone, mostly from the West. Part of that aid includes basic wages for people who were civil servants but no longer work because Hamas has no actual interest in governing. On top of that, Israel had issued 10,000 work permit for Gazans to work in Israel to bring income into Gaza.
For all that aid, they had very little to show for it. The water treatment system was stripped for parts by Hamas to build rockets. Nice hospitals were built, with connections to the underground tunnel system so that Hamas could use them as shelter and for stealing UN provided fuel and supplies. There is no solution to poverty in Gaza while Hamas is in charge.
Honestly, I am pretty sick of the human toll this is taking on Gazans. I would love to wake up tomorrow and hear that there is a ceasefire and it is all over. Presumably that would also mean the hostages were released as well, and Hamas is defeated.
Is that $8 billion a real number? Because that's over $10,000 per person who lives in Gaza. That's real money- GDP per capita of Brazil is about that, and even China is only like $12,000-$13,000. With even a partially functioning civil service with plenty of corruption that would be more than enough to operate a functioning society.
Is that $8 billion a real number? Because that's over $10,000 per person who lives in Gaza. That's real money- GDP per capita of Brazil is about that, and even China is only like $12,000-$13,000. With even a partially functioning civil service with plenty of corruption that would be more than enough to operate a functioning society.
it's actually 'worse' than that as Israel provides vast amounts, nearly 80% I have seen, water and electricity for free.
#### you Justin Trudeau and your gutless Liberal government.
Nothing to say about the murder in cold blood by Hamas of Canadian Vivian Silver other than a vanilla tweet by Minister Jolie who “made it sound as though Silver died peacefully in her sleep rather than being brutalized and desecrated to the point where she was literally unrecognizable. This was not simply a “loss,” this was a woman who was slaughtered for no other reason than that she was Jewish.” (National Post)
And no demands for the safe and immediate return of the hostages. But stern demands that Israel cease operations in Gaza. #### you Trudeau. #### you.
Last edited by Manhattanboy; 11-15-2023 at 08:15 PM.
#### you Justin Trudeau and your gutless Liberal government.
Nothing to say about the murder in cold blood by Hamas of Canadian Vivian Silver other than a vanilla tweet by Minister Jolie who “made it sound as though Silver died peacefully in her sleep rather than being brutalized and desecrated to the point where she was literally unrecognizable. This was not simply a “loss,” this was a woman who was slaughtered for no other reason than that she was Jewish.” (National Post)
And no demands for the safe and immediate return of the hostages. But stern demands that Israel cease operations in Gaza. #### you Trudeau. #### you.
True leaders appeal to emotion and call for the mass murder of children
#### you Justin Trudeau and your gutless Liberal government.
Nothing to say about the murder in cold blood by Hamas of Canadian Vivian Silver other than a vanilla tweet by Minister Jolie who “made it sound as though Silver died peacefully in her sleep rather than being brutalized and desecrated to the point where she was literally unrecognizable. This was not simply a “loss,” this was a woman who was slaughtered for no other reason than that she was Jewish.” (National Post)
And no demands for the safe and immediate return of the hostages. But stern demands that Israel cease operations in Gaza. #### you Trudeau. #### you.
#### you Justin Trudeau and your gutless Liberal government.
Nothing to say about the murder in cold blood by Hamas of Canadian Vivian Silver other than a vanilla tweet by Minister Jolie who “made it sound as though Silver died peacefully in her sleep rather than being brutalized and desecrated to the point where she was literally unrecognizable. This was not simply a “loss,” this was a woman who was slaughtered for no other reason than that she was Jewish.” (National Post)
And no demands for the safe and immediate return of the hostages. But stern demands that Israel cease operations in Gaza. #### you Trudeau. #### you.
Uh huh.
The “nothing” Trudeau had to say about Silver:
Quote:
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Tuesday that Silver's remains were identified on Monday in Israel.
"Last month, I had the chance to meet with one of her sons. I learned of her warmth, her compassion, and her lifelong commitment to building bridges between Israelis and Palestinians. Vivian dedicated her life to peace, that bright light was extinguished on October 7," Trudeau said.
"Her courage, commitment and compassion exemplifies what it means to be a Canadian, what it means to be engaged in the world in positive ways. She will be deeply missed, may her memory be a blessing."
The “no” demands for the immediate and safe return of hostages:
Quote:
Trudeau said Hamas needs to stop using Palestinians as human shields and release all hostages "immediately and unconditionally." Canada has designated the group as a terrorist organization for more than 20 years.
Is that $8 billion a real number? Because that's over $10,000 per person who lives in Gaza. That's real money- GDP per capita of Brazil is about that, and even China is only like $12,000-$13,000. With even a partially functioning civil service with plenty of corruption that would be more than enough to operate a functioning society.
Technically, $4.5 billion was pledged by the UN in 2014 and was paid in increments that were fulfilled in 2021. The money was to be used for schools, as well as food and other necessities. After that, Qatar paid $1.3 billion to be used for paying Hamas salaries, hospitals, and construction projects. The Palestinian Authority pledged $1.7 billion to cover salaries of former government employees that were dismissed after Hamas took over. The EU donated $80 million to construct water treatment infrastructure. The U.S. gave $95.5 million for health services and to boost business ventures. Canada gave $25 million as general humanitarian aid. Egypt pledged $500 million, however, it is not believed that they ended up following through. They did however supply a lot of the labour and machines to clear rubble after the last war.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
I don't know what the solution here is. This is a group of people with every right to life and liberty but they have been corralled into a corner for generations that has created a ball of rage and hate that has just committed violence and destabilization across the region for decades just to achieve their goal. The closest analog I can think of in the west is the IRA's violence and means to an end in the worst stretches of the troubles and even that is a stretch. Israel might stamp out this generation's Hamas but all the surviving children are just going to grow up into the next generation of Hamas because of this war.
The Following User Says Thank You to Hack&Lube For This Useful Post:
In a video interview with the National Post’s John Ivison, Baird said Trudeau is “trying to have it both ways.”
“You can’t support both sides at the same time. You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth. It’s really unprecedented for a close friend and ally like the prime minister of Israel to openly criticize our prime minister. And what was even more shocking was that the leader of the opposition in Israel, former prime minister Lapid, joined Netanyahu in condemning Trudeau’s comments,” he said.
So Baird's a moron? Trudeau isn't supporting Israel and Hamas, He's supporting Israel and the innocent Palestinians who are getting killed. He's not supporting Hamas, so he's not playing both sides, unless Baird is suggesting there are no innocent Palestinians and they all deserve to die. This bozo was foreign affairs minister and that's the straw man he's running with? Good riddance John, go away.
