Russia invades Ukraine

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Pointman, there's no "western propaganda" involved here. The information that is gaining traction is what has gotten traction on places like Reddit and Twitter. That of course does not mean that it's accurate, and much of it probably isn't, but it's a matter of what grabs peoples' attention.

So calling it "propaganda" is inaccurate - there is no person or group of people with an agenda pushing a particular narrative about this conflict, besides "Putin = bad dictator, invasion of Ukraine = bad war on false pretences", and that's not so much an agenda as the immediate, face-value reaction to everything that's happened that most people around the world seem to have. They don't need to be led by the nose to any conclusions in that regard.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Feels like the old soviet system doesn't it. Clearly Putin is unhappy with the intelligence that the FSB gathered on Ukraine before and during this war. Probably got an overly optimistic report. Yeah, Ukraine is militarily week, their resolves isn't that strong, the people will rise up against the government and all of that.

Next comes, whoops they died of heart attacks in their head.

This is what happens when you surround yourself with Yes-Men who are afraid to tell you inconvenient truths.

Putin is setting himself up as the truth inheritor of Stalinism.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I get that the world is mad at Russia, but these sanctions against the oligarchs are odd to me. And seizing yachts and #### just seems illegal. What claim does Germany have against the yacht of some dude because his home country invaded a different (non-Germany) country? Maybe I just don't understand the money entanglements.

Abramovich apparently started making lots of money when Yeltsin was president. He bought Chelsea back in 2003. Since then, we've mostly had two decades of the world embracing Russia. They hosted the Winter Olympics and the World Cup. But now that they've invaded Ukraine, we're retroactively saying it was bad all along? I'm not saying it#wasn't#bad all along, just that the world didn't seem to care and Russia has been fully integrated into the world economy (until now). It's odd that we're going back and saying that anyone made money there - no matter how long ago - is now a criminal and must be punished by other countries because Putin invaded Ukraine.


The sanctioned oligarchs made their money through kleptocracy, but they stole from the Russian people. Maybe banking laws allow Germany and England to seize assets, but the oligarchs have been flaunting their wealth throughout Europe for decades so I don't understand why Putin invading Ukraine made them act on their wealth. It does seem crazy that Roman loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

The point is to try to stir up internal revolt against Putin from the most powerful people in Russia. However, this isn't even slightly making a dent right now. Additionally those targetted Oligarchs are ones that have been proven to have direct ties to Putin and have basically been robber-barons installed by Putin for their loyalty.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I get that the world is mad at Russia, but these sanctions against the oligarchs are odd to me. And seizing yachts and #### just seems illegal. What claim does Germany have against the yacht of some dude because his home country invaded a different (non-Germany) country? Maybe I just don't understand the money entanglements.

Abramovich apparently started making lots of money when Yeltsin was president. He bought Chelsea back in 2003. Since then, we've mostly had two decades of the world embracing Russia. They hosted the Winter Olympics and the World Cup. But now that they've invaded Ukraine, we're retroactively saying it was bad all along? I'm not saying it#wasn't#bad all along, just that the world didn't seem to care and Russia has been fully integrated into the world economy (until now). It's odd that we're going back and saying that anyone made money there - no matter how long ago - is now a criminal and must be punished by other countries because Putin invaded Ukraine.


The sanctioned oligarchs made their money through kleptocracy, but they stole from the Russian people. Maybe banking laws allow Germany and England to seize assets, but the oligarchs have been flaunting their wealth throughout Europe for decades so I don't understand why Putin invading Ukraine made them act on their wealth. It does seem crazy that Roman loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

You really don't understand why?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You really don't understand why?

I know they want the oligarch to apply pressure on Putin, but I do want to understand the legal mechanism for the seizures. It does seem crazy that Abramovich loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

Imagine if the Flames had a Russian owner, the team would be sanctioned right now. The Flames wouldn't be able to participate in trade deadline coming up or sell new tickets.

[PeteMoss]

One of my favourite things on CP is that people will literally argue with anyone about anything on the off-topic or Covid forums - but there are a select few posters that are so out there that there is an unspoken agreement that everyone ignores whatever they post.

Just top notch stuff.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I know they want the oligarch to apply pressure on Putin, but I do want to understand the legal mechanism for the seizures. It does seem crazy that Abramovich loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

Imagine if the Flames had a Russian owner, the team would be sanctioned right now. The Flames wouldn't be able to participate in trade deadline coming up or sell new tickets.

If steal your car and don't get arrested because I'm pals with the chief of the police - is it wrong that the car is seized and I can't sell it after my pal gets fired?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Pointman, there's no "western propaganda" involved here. The information that is gaining traction is what has gotten traction on places like Reddit and Twitter. That of course does not mean that it's accurate, and much of it probably isn't, but it's a matter of what grabs peoples' attention.

So calling it "propaganda" is inaccurate - there is no person or group of people with an agenda pushing a particular narrative about this conflict, besides "Putin = bad dictator, invasion of Ukraine = bad war on false pretences", and that's not so much an agenda as the immediate, face-value reaction to everything that's happened that most people around the world seem to have. They don't need to be led by the nose to any conclusions in that regard.

In general terms no one in the west has cared about Russia for decades until perhaps Trump and the 2016 election but that was more Russia being a stand-in for hating Trump rather than a big Russia thing. There's been no propaganda which is why Russia was able to take Crimea and attack Georgia, etc because no one really cared about Russia. There's no big anti-Russia propaganda apparatus in the west and there hasn't been for decades.

[TopChed]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1502294454572826624?s=20&t=QYM4QGLl7J-DR_JzVekIvw

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I know they want the oligarch to apply pressure on Putin, but I do want to understand the legal mechanism for the seizures. It does seem crazy that Abramovich loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

Imagine if the Flames had a Russian owner, the team would be sanctioned right now. The Flames wouldn't be able to participate in trade deadline coming up or sell new tickets.

Really? Do you want Russia to legally justify their invasion, murder, and destruction of Ukraine as well? These oligarchs received their wealth through kissing Putin's ass for decades. It's tough to argue they earned it in the first place. They have the ability to bring Putin down, so by pressuring them, you hurt Putin and may be able to affect an end to this illegal invasion. Who TF cares about the "legality" of taking rich boys toys? The rules are out the window.


The fact you are concerned about a sports team over what the Ukrainian people are suffering is incredibly baffling. If the Flames owner was Russian? What, you think I'd side with the Flames and whatever difficulties it would present? Sorry, no. I'm on the side of humanity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I get that the world is mad at Russia, but these sanctions against the oligarchs are odd to me. And seizing yachts and #### just seems illegal. What claim does Germany have against the yacht of some dude because his home country invaded a different (non-Germany) country? Maybe I just don't understand the money entanglements.

Abramovich apparently started making lots of money when Yeltsin was president. He bought Chelsea back in 2003. Since then, we've mostly had two decades of the world embracing Russia. They hosted the Winter Olympics and the World Cup. But now that they've invaded Ukraine, we're retroactively saying it was bad all along? I'm not saying it#wasn't#bad all along, just that the world didn't seem to care and Russia has been fully integrated into the world economy (until now). It's odd that we're going back and saying that anyone made money there - no matter how long ago - is now a criminal and must be punished by other countries because Putin invaded Ukraine.


The sanctioned oligarchs made their money through kleptocracy, but they stole from the Russian people. Maybe banking laws allow Germany and England to seize assets, but the oligarchs have been flaunting their wealth throughout Europe for decades so I don't understand why Putin invading Ukraine made them act on their wealth. It does seem crazy that Roman loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

It doesn’t help that we cheerfully accept - no, enthusiastically solicit - investment by crooked oligarchs from Saudia Arabia, China, and other regimes just as odious as Putin’s Russia.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Really? Do you want Russia to legally justify their invasion, murder, and destruction of Ukraine as well? These oligarchs received their wealth through kissing Putin's ass for decades. It's tough to argue they earned it in the first place. They have the ability to bring Putin down, so by pressuring them, you hurt Putin and may be able to affect an end to this illegal invasion. Who TF cares about the "legality" of taking rich boys toys? The rules are out the window.


The fact you are concerned about a sports team over what the Ukrainian people are suffering is incredibly baffling. If the Flames owner was Russian? What, you think I'd side with the Flames and whatever difficulties it would present? Sorry, no. I'm on the side of humanity.

No you're right. I was looking into it incorrectly. You're right

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

No you're right. I was looking into it incorrectly. You're right

The Chelsea-thing does seem a bit weird to me too, if I'm honest.

Generally speaking though, Russia declared war against the safety of all Europe, and we're responding like it, like nations at war with Russia.

At wartime, seizure of private property by the government is pretty standard stuff, but really most of the laws necessary to do it tend to be in place even in peacetime. National security trumps everything whenever government say it does. These laws are normally just not used, because seizing private property on the basis of someone's nationality is clearly aggression towards that nation.

Now that Russia declared itself our enemy, we get to treat Russia as the enemy back.

It's not pretty, but going after Putins billionaire buddies lifestyle is a decent strategy to undermine Putins powerbase.

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by Matata

Booooooo

Also they didn’t get rid of cash in Russia it’s just been rendered worthless. Weird meme man, many sides many sides, do your research, I’m just asking questions. Provocative stuff.

[GordonBlue]

Good opinion piece from a CNN reporter who has been in Russia for 30 years.

After over three decades of covering Russia, I leave in despair. One man has extinguished the bright hope many once felt

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/11/europ...cmd/index.html

For a while after Putin rose to power at the turn of the millennium, there was a glimmer of the modernizer about Russia's new leader, but that reputation didn't last long. With unbridled passion he soon tapped into nationalism, embraced imperial nostalgia and the conservatism of the Russian Orthodox Church stoked Soviet-era suspicions of westerners and stifled dissent. None of this was done to make Russia a better place in which to live; it just made easier for him to rule.

This year, while I have been in Moscow covering the buildup and outbreak of war in neighboring Ukraine, it became painfully clear to me that, just as the Nazis did in Germany during the 1930s and 40s, Putin has had laws made to his order. And like many a strongman before him, the Russian President is ruthlessly unleashing the compliant and complicit state apparatus that he himself built, to obediently enforce them.

Putin has shaped the Russian state entirely in his image, a move that will not be easily righted. The majority are cowed, the complicit in too deep to reverse their actions, his sanctioned cronies warned to swallow their anger and take the losses for the team like true patriots.

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1502499117523783687

[surferguy]

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

[woob]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

I find the whole online aspect of this war really tough to process. You see maps of daily Russian troop movements, retired/current military offering paragraph upon paragraph of strategy notes and thoughts, live videos of carnage. It's really quite alarming at times and, frankly, desensitizing to the absolute madness and devastation of war. I've stopped watching any videos and mostly read this thread to make sure I'm aware of what's happening and reading the personal accounts of people like HW, etc.

I struggle with wanting to keep myself informed and wanting to almost keep it at arm's length, so to speak, as I feel like consuming all this media/talking heads/imagery on it is somehow disrespectful to those living it. I don't know, probably just blabbering on here.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Pointman, there's no "western propaganda" involved here. The information that is gaining traction is what has gotten traction on places like Reddit and Twitter. That of course does not mean that it's accurate, and much of it probably isn't, but it's a matter of what grabs peoples' attention.

So calling it "propaganda" is inaccurate - there is no person or group of people with an agenda pushing a particular narrative about this conflict, besides "Putin = bad dictator, invasion of Ukraine = bad war on false pretences", and that's not so much an agenda as the immediate, face-value reaction to everything that's happened that most people around the world seem to have. They don't need to be led by the nose to any conclusions in that regard.

You are right, propaganda is probably a wrong word. It seems to imply that there's some kind of mastermind strategist that is controlling the narrative. That was not what I meant. I meant that some things are being posted, liked and shared because they are what people want to read, even if that is not necessarily true. Since everyone hates Putin, and deservingly so, it goes like "Hey, look! This idiot wanted to conquer Ukraine in two days! Ha ha, what a clown!". This sentiment goes around even though its base does not really have much substance. It seems to hinge on some sentionalized western experts predictions, a leaked pre-written Russian article that does not actually say about winning in two days, but was merely leaked on the second day, and some arbitrary conclusions drawn from certain military moves, while other moves that don't fit the narrative are being ignored.

Just to put things in perspective, Crimea annexation had no resistance and yet it took about two weeks (27.02 invasion - 11.03 last mentione of Russian troops action that I see)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time...ian_Federation

Suggesting that Putin expected to take whole Ukraine in two days while he took Crimea in two weeks is way off. That being said, as we are into a third week, it's probably irrelevant what was Putin's plan at the first place.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

Do you think these tanks are just out for a leisurely country drive? I lost my empathy for the Russian's when I see Ukrainian woman and children bombed in their beds.