2016-17 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

Sportsnet ‏@Sportsnet 6m6 minutes ago
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BREAKING: #Raptors acquire Serge Ibaka from #Magic for Terrence Ross and 2017 first-rounder http://sprtsnt.ca/2lcRVuH

Not a fan of that move. Pure panic. Ross and first is a lot to pay for a couple months of Ibaka and zero change at an NBA Championship.

[Senator Clay Davis]

They have two first round picks, and Ross is easily replaced by giving Powell more minutes. Plus they have Bird rights now so they of course can offer more than anyone else, so Ibaka might not be a rental at all. Low risk, high reward trade. 100% worth it.

Edit: Not being acquired to be a rental

Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 11m11 minutes ago
Sources: Toronto is trading for Ibaka with intention of trying to re-sign him in free agency this summer. Masai Ujiri has long coveted him.

https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA/s...38856797360128

[octothorp]

I'm really excited by this! My thing was always that I wanted them to acquire Ibaka without losing Patterson; to me, that's the lineup that offers the best counter to Cleveland's most scary lineups. Ibaka+JV gives them the best starting lineup frontcourt they've had since before Bosh left, with much better rim protection and help defense; Ibaka+Patterson gives you an ultimate perimeter smallball counter with two guys who can guard their position on the perimeter and shoot a high clip at the other end. Rebounding isn't great with Ibaka and Patterson, but against Cleveland you're often going to be looking at it against Frye lineups when their rebounding dips too. Doesn't make them a favorite by any means, but it gives them a puncher's chance.

It's also a huge bonus that they got him this early; lots of time off to get him integrated in practice with a light schedule coming up.

I think they've got a great chance at retaining him for next year, given the Bird rights and Ujiri's great relationship with him. To me the only question is whether they keep Patterson as well. The fact that they didn't move any of their young bigs in this deal (who likely all have better value than an early 20s pick) suggests to me they're considering letting Patterson walk and filling his position with some combination of the young guys next year.

[Imported_Aussie]

This is selling high on Ross. His contract has good value with the new CBA inflating salaries, but he tops out as a 6th man IMO. This fills a huge hole on the Raptors, and once the playoffs start and benches shorten, this will be a big add.
Essentially, when everyone is fit, you have Lowry, DeRozan, Carroll, Ibaka, Valanciunas backed up by Patterson, Joseph, Powell, moving the younger guys to deep cover. That is a pretty solid 8 man rotation - if they could find a way to get out from under Carroll's deal and upgrade SF then that would be gravy

[Senator Clay Davis]

So to me there is three possibilities here making Ibaka work for a long term deal:

1. Trade JV and Carroll in the offseason
2. Don't re-sign Lowry
3. Go into the luxury tax

Now it seems like number three is the least likely scenario, but I'm starting to think maybe not. The Leafs are loaded with young guys on cheap deals, so they don't have to be anywhere close to a cap team. So maybe MLSE looks at it like for two or three seasons they can go into the tax for the Raps, before the Leafs have to start spending close to the cap. But it sounds like Ibaka signing long term is a good bet right now.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Not a fan of that move. Pure panic. Ross and first is a lot to pay for a couple months of Ibaka and zero change at an NBA Championship.

VERY likely he signs in Toronto long term

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So to me there is three possibilities here making Ibaka work for a long term deal:

1. Trade JV and Carroll in the offseason
2. Don't re-sign Lowry
3. Go into the luxury tax

Now it seems like number three is the least likely scenario, but I'm starting to think maybe not. The Leafs are loaded with young guys on cheap deals, so they don't have to be anywhere close to a cap team. So maybe MLSE looks at it like for two or three seasons they can go into the tax for the Raps, before the Leafs have to start spending close to the cap. But it sounds like Ibaka signing long term is a good bet right now.

Good call on how this works with the Leafs. I think the tax is the most likely outcome. The tax is engineered in such a way that the way to maximize your payroll is to go hard into the tax for short amounts of time when you think you have a window to compete. This is that window for the Raptors. Get in now, take your best shot for the next two or three years before the repeater tax rate kicks in, and then get back down under the tax and retool. I think resigning Lowry and Ibaka and keeping JV is a given. Letting Patterson walk is a strong possibility. As is trading Carroll, but finding a trading partner that lets you shed salary is tough; most teams will need to give matching salary back. You can't just trade for expiring contracts to shed salary the way you once could. SF is still a point of weakness for this team and trading Carroll gives you a tough hole to fill.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by dino7c

VERY likely he signs in Toronto long term

How? The Luxury tax is quite punitive financially. Not many teams are willing to pay into it as a result. Maybe, I'm wrong, but I can't see Toronto being one of the teams that exceeds the cap.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How? The Luxury tax is quite punitive financially. Not many teams are willing to pay into it as a result. Maybe, I'm wrong, but I can't see Toronto being one of the teams that exceeds the cap.

With the amount of revenue the league is getting under the new deal, the luxury tax on its own isn't actually that painful. It's the repeater rate that kicks in after spending 3 of 4 years above the tax apron. The reason more teams are staying under the tax threshold right now is because if a window to contend opens, they want to maximize it, not have a year of contention before getting a massive hike in their tax.

It's designed to give teams the flexibility to go into the cap for short amounts of time to capitalize on windows of contention, but to also prevent potential big-spending teams from just camping out above the cap, the way teams like LA used to. I believe Cleveland is going to hit their repeater rate next year, and so would be paying massively more than Toronto for a similar value in players. It will really test Gilbert's tolerance as suddenly simply breaking even, despite a championship-calibre team, becomes difficult. There's a potential window there in Cleveland breaking up their roster (there's already conflict between James and Gilbert about the amount spent), and before some talented young teams like Philly take the next step.

[Jason14h]

So figuring out the Raptors cap situation next season

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto_raptors/

Lowry opts out and Ross is gone, so we have ~76 million committed

Assuming Lowry gets max ($27 million?), that's $103 million, minus Patterson and Ibaka

The luxury cap line is expected to be 122 million.

Is Ibaka a max player? If so that's $130 million before Patterson.

Now I would hope Lowry and Ibaka take less then max. Assuming Lowry takes 24$ million and Ibaka a similar deal, we're right about at the threshold before signing Patterson.

Anything I missed/messed up?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by octothorp

With the amount of revenue the league is getting under the new deal, the luxury tax on its own isn't actually that painful. It's the repeater rate that kicks in after spending 3 of 4 years above the tax apron. The reason more teams are staying under the tax threshold right now is because if a window to contend opens, they want to maximize it, not have a year of contention before getting a massive hike in their tax.

It's designed to give teams the flexibility to go into the cap for short amounts of time to capitalize on windows of contention, but to also prevent potential big-spending teams from just camping out above the cap, the way teams like LA used to. I believe Cleveland is going to hit their repeater rate next year, and so would be paying massively more than Toronto for a similar value in players. It will really test Gilbert's tolerance as suddenly simply breaking even, despite a championship-calibre team, becomes difficult. There's a potential window there in Cleveland breaking up their roster (there's already conflict between James and Gilbert about the amount spent), and before some talented young teams like Philly take the next step.

I think Cleveland paid $54 Million last year in Luxury tax. That's getting to be a huge number.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So figuring out the Raptors cap situation next season

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto_raptors/

Lowry opts out and Ross is gone, so we have ~76 million committed

Assuming Lowry gets max ($27 million?), that's $103 million, minus Patterson and Ibaka

The luxury cap line is expected to be 122 million.

Is Ibaka a max player? If so that's $130 million before Patterson.

Now I would hope Lowry and Ibaka take less then max. Assuming Lowry takes 24$ million and Ibaka a similar deal, we're right about at the threshold before signing Patterson.

Anything I missed/messed up?

If they keep the other first round pick, that is a guaranteed salary. It is a deep draft, but that may end up being a move made on draft day if there is no one they like at their pick

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Not a fan of that move. Pure panic. Ross and first is a lot to pay for a couple months of Ibaka and zero change at an NBA Championship.

Toronto might be able to capitalize on a bunch of non-US born star athletes wanting nothing to do with a Donald Trump-run America.

[St. Pats]

Been waiting for this all season. Just glad that MU finally got off his arse and got something done that every fan on the planet long since knew was needed.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Toronto might be able to capitalize on a bunch of non-US born star athletes wanting nothing to do with a Donald Trump-run America.

Doubtful. They're living in a bubble compared to the regular population given the money they make. Pro athletes generally go for maximizing their pay. That being equal, it comes down to lifestyle the city offers (which generally they go to Southern teams). Then it comes down to what the team offers. The bitching really begins when they finally arrive on the team and realize they should've put more stock into what they like about the team than the lifestyle they chose as a higher priority. But getting back to your point, the Trump thing barely affects the big money earner.

[bluejays]

While originally I wasn't a fan of dealing Ross and a 1st for a rental, I do trust in Ujiri and know he has a plan. Given what others here have outlined that he's probably not a rental at all, I think this is a good deal. Was never a fan of Ross, but I thought that given his resurgence that he's now an asset to deal in a sell high situation. The 1st is going to be useless being mid-1st. So I'm just fine with the deal. Now any chance of dealing Carroll for Gallinari?

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Toronto might be able to capitalize on a bunch of non-US born star athletes wanting nothing to do with a Donald Trump-run America.

San Antonio North

[killer_carlson]

I think moving Ross is addition by subtraction.

Tunnel vision. High volume shooter. Predictable. Easy to defend because you know he isn't going to pass.

Good luck on your new team. We're moving on.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think moving Ross is addition by subtraction.

Tunnel vision. High volume shooter. Predictable. Easy to defend because you know he isn't going to pass.

Good luck on your new team. We're moving on.

True but in moving him they are likely not done trading. They just got top heavy with big men and short on the wings especially at the SF position. Plus you have injury prone DC as the starter.

MU isn't done. Another move coming though very likely no where near as dramatic. They have been after PJ Tucker for forever as they were Ibaka. He would be the perfect addition to the team. Perimeter defense and rebounding. Rumor has the Suns wanting a first for him but really can't see that happening. A second and a mediocre prospect?

Actually after tonights game I'm thinking it has to be two at least more trades and one a major one. Casey the idiot won't play JV so they have no alternative but to trade him. Or get rid of Casey which would be the best move.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How? The Luxury tax is quite punitive financially. Not many teams are willing to pay into it as a result. Maybe, I'm wrong, but I can't see Toronto being one of the teams that exceeds the cap.

In doing this deal I think they have a plan...this is also a player that wants to play in TO which is often not the case in the NBA

shocker he is not American