[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You also are the fan that the Stampeders want to attract. Not hardcore enough to freeze your ass off on a cold fall evening.They have a hardcore fan base of around 24k that they know will show up but they really would like to sell out playoff games and that just doesn't happen. There's no doubt in my mind they would easily sell out playoff games if they had an indoor stadium.

But this fan is also more likely to be an NFL fan which, since the CFL plays its playoff games on Sundays, means that person is going to be nearly impossible to poach out of their seat to pay $50+ to watch the lesser league of football, indoor stadium or not. Not when $2 beers and no bathroom lines to watch multiple NFL games is available (and of course you can always flip over to TSN). Also I'd argue even with an indoor stadium, selling out a 37,000 seater for the CFL is asking a lot if it doesn't involve the Riders.

Perhaps the much bigger question than the schedule might be is there enough long term viability and potential in the CFL that a stadium or renovation is even worth investing in. I don't think the younger generation are all that hyped for CFL football. Really wasn't that long ago the league was in peril, so it's not inconceivable it returns to that point. CFL is a weird league from the perspective it's three biggest markets are its worst for attendance. I'm not sure that's really sustainable in the long run. TV deal can only prop them up for so long with the decline in overall TV viewership. Next one might be for a lot less money.

[s_procee]

I hope the CFL remains a fixture of Canadian sport, but the arena is what everyone wants.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by s_procee

There are some new apartments in the Victoria park area going in right now, getting on that bandwagon.

Need a roomie?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

There's no doubt in my mind that they'd sell out their playoff game. Note the lack of an s. You only get one playoff game.

There is also no doubt that attendance at ~8 summer/fall games would be lower than today with an indoor stadium. The Stamps would lose a large number of those 24k hardcore fans if they moved indoors. I guarantee it.

8 >>>>> 1, even if that 1 is a playoff game. Hell, I'll spot you some rain and a cold October. 5 >>>>> 1.

I agree on the overhangs though. I would not want them in a new stadium or a renovated McMahon.

This is so flawed. The very definition of hardcore means that they bleed football and come to see the game rain or snow. There is no way the organization would have wanted an indoor stadium if they remotely believed this would be the case. They know that an indoor 30k stadium is going to sell out more than not which is why they wanted it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is so flawed. The very definition of hardcore means that they bleed football and come to see the game rain or snow. There is no way the organization would have wanted an indoor stadium if they remotely believed this would be the case. They know that an indoor 30k stadium is going to sell out more than not which is why they wanted it.

No, they wanted to have the city pitch in the $200 million (not yet) allotted for the feildhouse to be added to the project.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is so flawed. The very definition of hardcore means that they bleed football and come to see the game rain or snow. There is no way the organization would have wanted an indoor stadium if they remotely believed this would be the case. They know that an indoor 30k stadium is going to sell out more than not which is why they wanted it.

football is slowly dying. as the current hardcore fans get older and stop going to games, they're not being replaced.

as long as you can get cfl games for free on tv, why would the average person deal with the hassle of getting to the game just to pay too much for a ticket and over priced beer and food?

I work in a place with quite a few younger people and none of them are into the CFL for one second. it's all NFL and American college ball.

be a waste of money to build a new stadium. throw 10 or 20 million into what they have and it will be good enough for what's needed.

[s_procee]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

Need a roomie?

That depends, are you a flames fan?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

football is slowly dying. as the current hardcore fans get older and stop going to games, they're not being replaced.

as long as you can get cfl games for free on tv, why would the average person deal with the hassle of getting to the game just to pay too much for a ticket and over priced beer and food?

I work in a place with quite a few younger people and none of them are into the CFL for one second. it's all NFL and American college ball.

be a waste of money to build a new stadium. throw 10 or 20 million into what they have and it will be good enough for what's needed.

Football isn't dying so I don't know what that comment was about but the bolded is correct. This is why the Stamps want to go to a new indoor stadium as they are lagging with younger fans. I don't blame younger fans for not getting excited about the prospects of paying to watch a game in an archaic facility like McMahon or freeze their rear ends off in the fall. $10 or 20 million isn't remotely close to accomplishing anything so you are dreaming if you think that's what is "needed". The issue is that it's going to cost $80+ million and that is just a waste of money.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is so flawed. The very definition of hardcore means that they bleed football and come to see the game rain or snow. There is no way the organization would have wanted an indoor stadium if they remotely believed this would be the case. They know that an indoor 30k stadium is going to sell out more than not which is why they wanted it.

No, it is not flawed. I am a hardcore fan and between my dad and me we have owned our tickets for a couple decades. They would lose me as a season ticket it holder which is such a sad thing to even think about. We have spoken with those around us and it seems about half of them feel the same way.

Many of us are really pissed at ownership because it feels as though they threw the hardcore CFL/Stamps fans under the bus with calgaryNEXT. The owners just wanted a city funded indoor facility they could generate so much more non-football revenue out of. It was not conceived at all with the football fan in mind.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Football isn't dying so I don't know what that comment was about but the bolded is correct. This is why the Stamps want to go to a new indoor stadium as they are lagging with younger fans. I don't blame younger fans for not getting excited about the prospects of paying to watch a game in an archaic facility like McMahon or freeze their rear ends off in the fall.

An indoor stadium is not going to sustainably attract a younger fan. Once you move it indoors you're making it exclusively about the football and let's be honest, it's an inferior level of football in most people's eyes. Indoors it will just look like bad NFL to them. Sure it might work for a season or two but it will not work long term.

And again, there are about 3 games at risk of freezing your butt off. You make it out to seem like it's every game or even a majority of games.

[s_procee]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

No, it is not flawed. I am a hardcore fan and between my dad and me we have owned our tickets for a couple decades. They would lose me as a season ticket it holder which is such a sad thing to even think about. We have spoken with those around us and it seems about half of them feel the same way.

Many of us are really pissed at ownership because it feels as though they threw the hardcore CFL/Stamps fans under the bus with calgaryNEXT. The owners just wanted a city funded indoor facility they could generate so much more non-football revenue out of. It was not conceived at all with the football fan in mind.

I agree that there are ulterior motives for the field house to make more than just football profit. But I think being able to use the field house for more than just football makes sense for the city. There are lots of uses for a field house. If they could figure out a way to incorporate an affordable retractable roof into the design that may be the best option.

[s_procee]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

An indoor stadium is not going to sustainably attract a younger fan. Once you move it indoors you're making it exclusively about the football and let's be honest, it's an inferior level of football in most people's eyes. Indoors it will just look like bad NFL to them. Sure it might work for a season or two but it will not work long term.

And again, there are about 3 games at risk of freezing your butt off. You make it out to seem like it's every game or even a majority of games.

I heard on the Fan that the CFL is looking into making the balls the same size as the NFL to increase scoring. being like the nfl is not negative

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Football isn't dying so I don't know what that comment was about but the bolded is correct. This is why the Stamps want to go to a new indoor stadium as they are lagging with younger fans. I don't blame younger fans for not getting excited about the prospects of paying to watch a game in an archaic facility like McMahon or freeze their rear ends off in the fall. $10 or 20 million isn't remotely close to accomplishing anything so you are dreaming if you think that's what is "needed". The issue is that it's going to cost $80+ million and that is just a waste of money.

Younger fans aren't paying for the CFL even in a new stadium. The CFL game is unappealing to younger people. Hell, I am just about 30 and I don't know a single CFL fan anymore. Anecdotal I know, but the average age for CFL fans has done nothing but increase over the years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

No, it is not flawed. I am a hardcore fan and between my dad and me we have owned our tickets for a couple decades. They would lose me as a season ticket it holder which is such a sad thing to even think about. We have spoken with those around us and it seems about half of them feel the same way.

Many of us are really pissed at ownership because it feels as though they threw the hardcore CFL/Stamps fans under the bus with calgaryNEXT. The owners just wanted a city funded indoor facility they could generate so much more non-football revenue out of. It was not conceived at all with the football fan in mind.

You may feel that way now but once given a chance to examine the new facility and renew your tickets you may change your tune. I believe the idea is that they would gain a lot more than they would lose as I said in the post above they are trying to attract a younger fan base as you can't expect the 50+year old crowd to be around forever.

Originally Posted by Weitz

Younger fans aren't paying for the CFL even in a new stadium. The CFL game is unappealing to younger people. Hell, I am just about 30 and I don't know a single CFL fan anymore. Anecdotal I know, but the average age for CFL fans has done nothing but increase over the years.

We know this but the CFL isn't going to sit on their hands and accept they have to close the doors when their aging fan base passes on. It's something they have to continually work on and it's not going to happen overnight but you can't seriously expet them to throw up their hands and give up. That's not what business or organizations do. The NHL has never accepted that they aren't a mainstream US sport and will always continue to try and grow the sport in the US.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Younger fans aren't paying for the CFL even in a new stadium. The CFL game is unappealing to younger people. Hell, I am just about 30 and I don't know a single CFL fan anymore. Anecdotal I know, but the average age for CFL fans has done nothing but increase over the years.

I think the majority of younger fans in this city probably go to one game a year as a fun thing to do on a random sunny afternoon. They aren't CFL fans - they are sitting outside and drinking on a sunny day fans.

[Tyler]

I think the diminishing lack of interest in the CFL is why you need to build a field house instead of a stand-alone stadium. That will probably be the only way this get's done in the near future. For that reason, this will have to have a roof.

[s_procee]

Originally Posted by Tyler

I think the diminishing lack of interest in the CFL is why you need to build a field house instead of a stand-alone stadium. That will probably be the only way this get's done in the near future. For that reason, this will have to have a roof.

This makes more sense to me. why spend the money on a stand alone.

[SilverKast]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

I think the majority of younger fans in this city probably go to one game a year as a fun thing to do on a random sunny afternoon. They aren't CFL fans - they are sitting outside and drinking on a sunny day fans.

I completely agree with this. I grew up a CFL fan and had Stamps seasons tickets for 15 years. I still go to Grey Cup every year, but I find I really don't care a whole lot about the games themselves - it's more having a good time with my friends.

I gave up my CFL tickets a couple years ago as I just didn't enjoy it. I fly to a few NFL games every year, (working on seeing every stadium) and after seeing various stadiums across the US I just can't bring myself to go to the travesty of a stadium that McMahon is in comparison.

I'm only 45, but even my friends hardly go anymore. And my teenage kids have absolutely zero interest in CFL football. Not sure what's going to happen with the CFL, but when you see Toronto's attendance it doesn't look good.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by s_procee

I agree that there are ulterior motives for the field house to make more than just football profit. But I think being able to use the field house for more than just football makes sense for the city.

I agree that there are some deal structures and indoor facility designs which would definitely make sense for the city and greater public. However every single one of them harm the CFL/Stamps fan. Perhaps that's worth it, but at least call a spade a spade.

Originally Posted by s_procee

I heard on the Fan that the CFL is looking into making the balls the same size as the NFL to increase scoring. being like the nfl is not negative

The ball size thing is interesting but odd since I've never thought of the CFL as having a scoring problem. On the latter, being anything more like the NFL is almost definitely a negative thing. Because then it just becomes bad NFL. What differentiates the CFL from the NFL is what makes it such a great sport. Big field, 20 second play clock, 3 downs, 12 men...and substandard players. They all lead to an exciting brand of big play football where no lead is safe and anyone can win on a given day.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You may feel that way now but once given a chance to examine the new facility and renew your tickets you may change your tune. I believe the idea is that they would gain a lot more than they would lose as I said in the post above they are trying to attract a younger fan base as you can't expect the 50+year old crowd to be around forever.

I certainly may, but chances are pretty slim. Yes, I would still go to the odd game but I would most definitely give up my season tickets. I am the exact fan they don't want to risk losing - the young hardcore fan.

It is a massive gamble to kill your hardcore fan base, even if they are aging, to try to draw the younger crowd. And I am telling you from personal and many first hand conversations that it is a gamble that will not pay off. They will lose a big chunk of their hardcore fan base to the TV set, and it will not attract enough young fans. Because most of the young fans are, as East Coast Flame puts it, sitting outside and drinking on a sunny day fans.

Look, I know you were a big fan of CalgaryNEXT and genuinely believe it is the right decision for the city. I cannot argue with you on the latter point. It might just be. However do not try to dress it up as a good thing for the existing CFL/Stamps fan. It is not.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

I completely agree with this. I grew up a CFL fan and had Stamps seasons tickets for 15 years. I still go to Grey Cup every year, but I find I really don't care a whole lot about the games themselves - it's more having a good time with my friends.

I gave up my CFL tickets a couple years ago as I just didn't enjoy it. I fly to a few NFL games every year, (working on seeing every stadium) and after seeing various stadiums across the US I just can't bring myself to go to the travesty of a stadium that McMahon is in comparison.

I'm only 45, but even my friends hardly go anymore. And my teenage kids have absolutely zero interest in CFL football. Not sure what's going to happen with the CFL, but when you see Toronto's attendance it doesn't look good.

Toronto is just a dead market for the CFL. They only support big league sports (and Leafs related given the Marlies do ok). They need to keep the team there to keep the league on the big media radar but really don't see them ever being popular.

Hamilton is less than an hour away and they fill their stadium pretty well. But just too many options in Toronto and the CFL is way down the list of things to do. Haven't looked at Montreal - but I do wonder if having an MLS team playing at the same time is a big hit on CFL attendence in the market.