Notes: Ken King (Iginla, New Building)

[868904]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Is that a serious question? They had a player who displayed some leadership qualities, he was moved out. Fact is that nobody is going to emerge as a leader to challenge the guy who has been the leader for 14 years. That just does not happen.

All I can say is that this team has had the same culture, regardless of whether they had a top 10 team in the league roster or a bottom 10 team in the league roster or something in between. Players come and go and the culture and the way the team plays remains the same. That is all I know. The idea that the Flames are good one night and awful the next is not a Bob Hartley coached team phenomenon, this has been how this team has played since 2006/2007. And the captain has always been a player who comes prepared for some games and just takes some nights off, or a lot of nights off depending on the season.

Jarome Iginla is Mark Messier.....minus all the Stanley Cups.

His career is very similar. Physically dominant and the greatest leader during his prime, but than the reputation and legacy got too big to the point of being a detriment.

For Iginla, he's lucky he stayed with one team where he built up his goodwill. Messier got it hard because he never built up any goodwill with Canuck fans and his poor play coupled with his lack of goodwill turned him into a hated player by their fans. However, Messier could do no wrong in Edmonton and New York.

Some Flames fans view Iginla like Canucks fans view Messier, others view him like Oiler and Rangers fans view Messier.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Fact is no one has been capable of it. Its not like someone has to challenge Iginla to a fight and rip the C of his jersey in order to become the new leader. If someone else has the capability to lead the team they should start doing it. Start taking over games on the ice. Start making an impact, start carrying the team on their shoulders. The way Iginla did when he became captain. It has nothing to do with longevity and everything to do capability. No one on this team has shown they are fit to take over captaincy yet. I'd love to see it.

As far as Phaneuf goes I'm not sure many people regret the fact that he didn't become our captain. And the bottom line is, even if Phaneuf was going to be the new captain, its not Iginla's fault he got moved. That was a management decision. And if Iginla was such a cancerous captain wouldn't they have dealt him by now?

here's the thing about that.... If there is the so called "Iggy cap" on the team where management won't pay anyone more than Iggy and management hasn't traded Iggy because they feel they invested so much in him that they don't want to see him win with another team, do you think they're giong to take the "C" off of their annointed leader??

I'll agree that Iggy is the captain more for who he is, not what he is. What he does, the team does. When he takes a night off, it seems like the rest of the team does too.

As long as he's here, the team is going to be the same team that it has been for the past few years. 8th place will be the goal and mediocrity will be acceptable.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Poe969

here's the thing about that.... If there is the so called "Iggy cap" on the team where management won't pay anyone more than Iggy and management hasn't traded Iggy because they feel they invested so much in him that they don't want to see him win with another team, do you think they're giong to take the "C" off of their annointed leader??

I'll agree that Iggy is the captain more for who he is, not what he is. What he does, the team does. When he takes a night off, it seems like the rest of the team does too.

As long as he's here, the team is going to be the same team that it has been for the past few years. 8th place will be the goal and mediocrity will be acceptable.

Its not about taking the C off. Its about where you're going to put it. You're the GM/Coach of the Flames. What would you do? Where is your next captain?

All of you ripping Iginla's leadership don't really seem to have a viable alternative.

Also, as far as Iginla's contract, he's been the best player on the team pretty much every single year, and has earned damn well near all of that contract.

He won't get that kind of money again, but he was certainly full value for it over his career.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Its not about taking the C off. Its about where you're going to put it. You're the GM/Coach of the Flames. What would you do? Where is your next captain?

All of you ripping Iginla's leadership don't really seem to have a viable alternative.

Also, as far as Iginla's contract, he's been the best player on the team pretty much every single year, and has earned damn well near all of that contract.

He won't get that kind of money again, but he was certainly full value for it over his career.

If Iggy is traded i doubt they will have a captain next year unless someone really steps up. I have no problem with that. Teams should only have a captain if one is worthy, not because they should name someone "Captain".

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Its not about taking the C off. Its about where you're going to put it. You're the GM/Coach of the Flames. What would you do? Where is your next captain?

All of you ripping Iginla's leadership don't really seem to have a viable alternative.

Also, as far as Iginla's contract, he's been the best player on the team pretty much every single year, and has earned damn well near all of that contract.

He won't get that kind of money again, but he was certainly full value for it over his career.

Is it not possible that Iginla is an inadequate leader and the Flames have no other alternatives? It still goes against what happens in every team sport your scenario where someone comes in and asserts themselves as the new leader on a team where they have had the same leader for many seasons in a row. That just almost never happens.

I just get confused, Iginla was a great leader when the team missed the playoffs, then he was a great leader when they made the Cup run, then he was a great leader when they consistently disappointed with first round defeats, then he was a great leader when they missed the playoffs. He may be a great leader, but I have not seen much evidence of it IMHO. The Flames had a great run that was fantastic, going to those games was the best experience I have had in my 13 years as a STH, but there are a lot of teams that go on Cinderella runs. I have seen little evidence of this great leader that gets spoken about so much, he apparently is quiet in the room but he is and always has been horribly inconsistent on the ice in terms of effort and his give a #### factor fluctuates wildly from night to night (with the exception of the spring of 2004). Not sure what qualities he brings and has brought in the past on a nightly basis that makes him a great leader. An average one, sure probably, but a great leader not sure about that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Obviously there is a segment of fans that feel Iginla is not fit to be the captain. If we agree that is true (I don't), who on the team has the skillset to provide this function? Why haven't they emerged as a leader yet if Iginla is such a poor one?

There is a pecking order on NHL teams. Everyone on the roster knows what it is. On the Flames, Iginla has been perched on the top of that pecking order for a decade. When he was younger, the team still had guys like Lowrey, Gelinas, and Warrener who could call out the stars when they weren't backchecking or taking their man. Those days are long gone. By the Detroit series in '07 it was evident that the Flames are a team who will bail on a coach of they didn't like his approach.

What is a Jokinen or Giordano supposed to do when Iginla or his pals Tanguay and Cammalleri take a couple shifts off, or drift away from the coach's game plan? Call them out in the dressing room? No way. If coaches have lost struggles with Iginla over how the team should play, what chance does a 2nd tier player have?

Leadership isn't just being productive, or being good with the media, or being a good friend to your teammates. It's holding the rest of the players on the team accountable to each other. I was never a fan of the Sutters, but they got one thing right about this team - the players do not hold one another accountable. And when the only constant over the last 6 seasons has been Iginla, it's pretty clear that they mean Iginla either could not or would not hold his teammates accountable, and neither could other players hold Iginla accountable. The internal leadership and accountability of the Flames is dysfunctional.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Is it not possible that Iginla is an inadequate leader and the Flames have no other alternatives? It still goes against what happens in every team sport your scenario where someone comes in and asserts themselves as the new leader on a team where they have had the same leader for many seasons in a row. That just almost never happens.

I just get confused, Iginla was a great leader when the team missed the playoffs, then he was a great leader when they made the Cup run, then he was a great leader when they consistently disappointed with first round defeats, then he was a great leader when they missed the playoffs. He may be a great leader, but I have not seen much evidence of it IMHO. The Flames had a great run that was fantastic, going to those games was the best experience I have had in my 13 years as a STH, but there are a lot of teams that go on Cinderella runs. I have seen little evidence of this great leader that gets spoken about so much, he apparently is quiet in the room but he is and always has been horribly inconsistent on the ice in terms of effort and his give a #### factor fluctuates wildly from night to night (with the exception of the spring of 2004). Not sure what qualities he brings and has brought in the past on a nightly basis that makes him a great leader. An average one, sure probably, but a great leader not sure about that.

How about being the best player pretty much each and every year? How about the times he's dropped the gloves, scored the GWG, setup important goals, earned the respect of his teammates, been the reason free agents have even come to Calgary. He always has been horribly inconsistent? That is truly garbage.

How does a guy who scores over 30 goals almost every year have a fluctuating give a #### factor? Is that what you've witnessed from him since 1996?

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Jarome Iginla has done everything in his capability as a player to help this team win. Its easy to take shots at him now as an aging player. The franchise let him down, not the other way around.

[Tinordi]

I actually disagree. Iginla was asked to change his game by Sutter and to do the things that help teams win. He was also asked to lead this direction among teammates because Sutter needed 100% buy in from everyone to the system for it to work.

Iginla disagreed and played against the coach. Some leader.

Winning games in the NHL is about buying into a system and executing, not getting your points.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Igottago

How about being the best player pretty much each and every year? How about the times he's dropped the gloves, scored the GWG, setup important goals, earned the respect of his teammates, been the reason free agents have even come to Calgary. He always has been horribly inconsistent? That is truly garbage.

How does a guy who scores over 30 goals almost every year have a fluctuating give a #### factor? Is that what you've witnessed from him since 1996?

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Jarome Iginla has done everything in his capability as a player to help this team win. Its easy to take shots at him now as an aging player. The franchise let him down, not the other way around.

I agree with everything except for this. I hate it when people say this, the Flames did NOT let Iginla down. We had a damn awesome team from 2007-2010.

[Tinordi]

By the way, a different player was asked by his coach to change his game and to lead his teammates to a new system if they were to ever win a cup. That player was Steve Yzerman, and he did do those things, and he then won multiple cups.

[Phanuthier]

I should add, the Flames have gone out and signed/targetted players Iginla personally hand picked - he wanted Jeff Friesen, he wanted Tony Amonte, he asked for Marc Savard (we almost got him back; our "No 1 C") ... he wanted an enforcer, we brought in Chris McGratton and PL3 at his request. So stop propagating that crap that the organization let Iginla down, the organization did everything they could and spend to the cap limit (and bury contracts), at one point the Calgary Flames might as well be "Iginla and friends" ...

Sucks we didn't go anywhere, but the organization tried and shelled out a lot of money to try and compete the last few years.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I should add, the Flames have gone out and signed/targetted players Iginla personally hand picked - he wanted Jeff Friesen, he wanted Tony Amonte, he asked for Marc Savard (we almost got him back; our "No 1 C") ... he wanted an enforcer, we brought in Chris McGratton and PL3 at his request. So stop propagating that crap that the organization let Iginla down, the organization did everything they could and spend to the cap limit (and bury contracts), at one point the Calgary Flames might as well be "Iginla and friends" ...

Sucks we didn't go anywhere, but the organization tried and shelled out a lot of money to try and compete the last few years.

Conroy, Bertuzzi, Tanguay...

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Conroy, Bertuzzi, Tanguay...

Cammalleri?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

By the way, a different player was asked by his coach to change his game and to lead his teammates to a new system if they were to ever win a cup. That player was Steve Yzerman, and he did do those things, and he then won multiple cups.

With a ridiculous number of hall of famers and hall of fame coach on his team. Not even comparable to Jarome's situation.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I should add, the Flames have gone out and signed/targetted players Iginla personally hand picked - he wanted Jeff Friesen, he wanted Tony Amonte, he asked for Marc Savard (we almost got him back; our "No 1 C") ... he wanted an enforcer, we brought in Chris McGratton and PL3 at his request. So stop propagating that crap that the organization let Iginla down, the organization did everything they could and spend to the cap limit (and bury contracts), at one point the Calgary Flames might as well be "Iginla and friends" ...

Sucks we didn't go anywhere, but the organization tried and shelled out a lot of money to try and compete the last few years.

Where was the drafting? Where was the new crop of stars that should've been carrying the load as Iginla got older? Where was the legit #1 centre (all due respect to Daymond Langkow)?

The team spend money on some decent players but also a lot of has beens. But is sounds like Jarome Iginla was essentially the GM of the team, so we should pin that on him too. Darryl Sutter must've been one weak minded guy to let Iggy force him to make all those moves.

[minnow]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Cammalleri?

That's funny!

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I actually disagree. Iginla was asked to change his game by Sutter and to do the things that help teams win. He was also asked to lead this direction among teammates because Sutter needed 100% buy in from everyone to the system for it to work.

Iginla disagreed and played against the coach. Some leader.

Winning games in the NHL is about buying into a system and executing, not getting your points.

But then we'd have people complaining about Iggy not producing.

Iggy's leading the team in scoring? Who cares, he's bucking the system. Iggy's not producing points? Why not, he's being paid $7 million to do just that. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[Tinordi]

Winning games > getting your points

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Winning games > getting your points

Whose to say they'd be winning. Maybe the offense would've dried up even more had Iggy stepped back from an offensive role. Maybe they would've lost more.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Whose to say they'd be winning. Maybe the offense would've dried up even more had Iggy stepped back from an offensive role. Maybe they would've lost more.

Jarome?