Breaking Bad

[Ashasx]

ok

[nik-]

Yeah, I guess that came across kind of dickish, but the way you said it sounded plural, and I can really only think of that one time.

[Ashasx]

he definitely did it more than once

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

This thread is getting dangerously spoily!

It's more wild speculation then anything.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't see Walt letting Jane die as a betrayal at all. Jane was no good for Jesse and I think Walt getting her out of the picture was the best for both of them. I think Walt actually has some patental instinct towards Jesse but the whole situation lends itself to an effed up way of displaying it.

Even the whole Brock thing can be looked at as necessary tough love. Gus showed them that people, even in his inner circle, were disposable if they messed up even a little... and Jesse is bound to mess up with his addiction problems and poor decision making abilities. Gus wanted him gone from the start and was clearly going to just use him for the time being. Poisoning Brock was a terrible thing, but not a betrayal in the bigger picture.

Wow, remind me never to get on our bad side! lol. Even Saul thought Brock ending up in the hospital was sleazy.

No, Walt's been using Jesse against Gus. And even tried to get him to kill him for him. If he had just chilled out after that guy getting his throat slit he wouldn't have had half the problems. And Gus and Mike actually helped Jesse get over his addiction and his problems at home. Walt just got paranoid they were all working against him.

The funny thing is Jesse has shown Walt more loyalty than Walt has ever shown him. Even after he gets close to Mike and Gus he mentions that Walt is not to be touched.

As well, the reason Gus was interested in Jesse was because, in a word, as Mike said: 'Loyalty. I just wonder if you've got it for the right person.'

And Mike also shows displeasure in this most reason episode when Jesse defends Walt. He can see just what kind of guy Walt is. 'Oh kid...' he almost looks sad that Walt has Jesse wrapped around his finger.

With Jane, he let her die to get Jesse back on his side, not to get bad people out of Jesse's life. You can watch his mental decision making, he even almost goes to help her at one point, then stops, gets a very dark look on his face then watches her die. Sure she's got problems with drugs, but I wouldn't let my best friends girl die just to make a point or get her out of his life. That's evil and he did it for selfish reasons. Not to mention, they did want to sober up, they were just having problems.

As for Brock what you wrote doesn't make a lot of sense. At least to me. Cause Walts drive is how he feels for his family. But he won't allow Jesse to have those same feelings?

Not to mention he nearly kills an innocent boy and blames it on Gus. In fact even blames him directly for it. And he does it to get Jesse back on his side. Not to help him. Even if it was to help him, you don't screw with a child. And that family dynamic was helping Jesse stay mentally healthy anyway.

As Tinordi said, he's shown right from the first episode the majority of his actions are based on pride. And the pride has just gotten darker as his decisions have become harder and he's seen violence around him.

[Wormius]

^^ I think there were examples of Walt putting himself on the line for Jesse to save him, especially when Gus wanted to kill him.

Walt let Jane die because of the extortion / blackmail problems she was causing.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Wormius

^^ I think there were examples of Walt putting himself on the line for Jesse to save him, especially when Gus wanted to kill him.

Walt let Jane die because of the extortion / blackmail problems she was causing.

But Gus didn't want to kill Jesse after he got Mike to babysit him. In fact, he wanted to take him under his wing. But Walt still poisoned Brock anyway.

Guess some of us see it different ways, which is fine. But it does amaze how people will often side with the protagonist or lead character, even if they are the most evil of the bunch. It's a trick used in a lot of books and shows and movies. We cheer for the one telling the story and take their sides in the arguments because we can see their point of view better and generally more favorably than the other characters. We are closer to them emotionally and more invested in them. Even when we know they may not be the best person. It's called being an anti-hero. Walt's an anti-hero for sure, he fits all the literary themes and definitions. But he may be even worse than that. There's a good chance, IMO he's the BAD GUY.

[Ashasx]

Walt killing those 2 drug dealers to save Jesse's life shows me their relationship.

It's not all manipulation from Walt.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Walt killing those 2 drug dealers to save Jesse's life shows me their relationship.

It's not all manipulation from Walt.

Well as I mentioned in the first response, that's probably the only thing he really did for Jesse's benefit. That one can't be argued, I agree.

The two of them do have a complicated relationship obviously. But it does seem like Walt really only sticks up for Jesse when the life or death is right in his face. He doesn't really think of him at other times and in fact outright uses him. You have to remember he brought Jesse into his plan by blackmailing him that he would go to the police regarding Jesse cooking the meth in the first place. For a long time he treated him with great disdain, and still doesn't look at him they way he wants to view himself. Jesse is always the stupid one, and while Jesse does lack in certain cerebral and common sense areas, he has done as much for the two of them as Walt has. He had the street sense Walt didn't have, and actually advised him against some very dumb ideas of his own. And early on he was doing all the selling and taking all the risks. Walt just wanted to cook and stay out of trouble. And they've both screwed up at critical junctures too. Yet he never has Walt's respect. When Jesse wants to make money it's cause he's a 'junkie', when Walt does it's for the noble reasons of providing for his family.

Sure Walt went after Tuco for Jesse, but that was to make the sale too. In fact, he ended up pressuring Tuco into a bigger deal even though it might not be a good idea, especially for Jesse. Would you do business with someone who beat the crap out of your friend?

He's been using him and trying to control him since the beginning. I think he does legitimately care about him, or at least has grown to, but at the end, he doesn't care about him as much as himself or his own ego gratification and has shown time again he'll use him or his desires to keep himself or his family out of trouble.

[Ashasx]

We're in for an interesting season to see how it plays out.

Very sad it's the last one.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't see Walt letting Jane die as a betrayal at all. Jane was no good for Jesse and I think Walt getting her out of the picture was the best for both of them. I think Walt actually has some patental instinct towards Jesse but the whole situation lends itself to an effed up way of displaying it.

Even the whole Brock thing can be looked at as necessary tough love. Gus showed them that people, even in his inner circle, were disposable if they messed up even a little... and Jesse is bound to mess up with his addiction problems and poor decision making abilities. Gus wanted him gone from the start and was clearly going to just use him for the time being. Poisoning Brock was a terrible thing, but not a betrayal in the bigger picture.

Pretty sure your moral compass needs fixing.

To be clear, what you're saying is that it was okay to to be complicit and complacent in the near death and death of two people that your supposed friend loves. Because of a self appointed role of of knowing what's right for that person.

That's a pretty fundamental misread of what is really going on.

Walt betrayed Jesse because he didn't help save the woman he loved from death when he was totally capable of doing because it served his own interests more and then willingly poisoned a child that Jesse loved for the same reason, to serve Walt's own selfish ends.

Pretty cut and dry. I would go back and watch the series again because I think you're misunderstanding the dynamics at work.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Pretty sure your moral compass needs fixing.

To be clear, what you're saying is that it was okay to to be complicit and complacent in the near death and death of two people that your supposed friend loves. Because of a self appointed role of of knowing what's right for that person.

That's a pretty fundamental misread of what is really going on.

Walt betrayed Jesse because he didn't help save the woman he loved from death when he was totally capable of doing because it served his own interests more and then willingly poisoned a child that Jesse loved for the same reason, to serve Walt's own selfish ends.

Pretty cut and dry. I would go back and watch the series again because I think you're misunderstanding the dynamics at work.

This isn't about my moral compass. This isn't reality, it's a television program. From the very beginning, the underlying theme has been about Walt doing bad things but for the right reasons, then having to deal with the blow-back, rinse and repeat. (Not to get OT, but I don't watch Dexter and think being a serial executioner is morally correct even if he does it for the right reasons).

Sometimes decisions can be selfish and still be for the right reasons. Those 2 things do not have to be exclusive. Would it have been morally the right thing for Walt to bring Jesse into the world of fast money, and then abandon him as a heroin addict and let Jane continue to put him and his family in danger? Or would it be morally right for Walt to leave Jesse as Gus's prisoner and slave being only one screw up from having a box cutter in his neck?

Walt's mental state is complicated and if all you're seeing is the selfish side, and not the "family man" with protective instincts still surfacing, then you are only getting half the picture. Walt isn't a 100% cold-hearted villian yet.

We're talking about 2 people who manufacture a dangerous drug and have murdered people in order to keep themselves out of trouble. Making Brock sick for a day isn't the most terrible thing either have them have done. Walt being a brilliant chemist, I have to believe that the poison was administered in a dose that he knew would not permanently harm the kid.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Daradon

But Gus didn't want to kill Jesse after he got Mike to babysit him. In fact, he wanted to take him under his wing. But Walt still poisoned Brock anyway.

But how long would that last? Gus took one of his loyal employees and slit his throat for making a mistake and to make a point. Jesse is a trainwreck and it surely would be only a matter of time until he screwed up. Being preferred over Walt didn't mean a heck of a lot. If you recall in the finale last year, Jesse was being handcuffed and forced to work at gunpoint before Walt came into the lab and ended everything. Jesse would have been gone as soon as Gus could get his own guy.

Even though Walt was in self-preservation mode, I don't think he was lying when he told Jesse that Gus would kill them both and it was only a matter of time.

Guess some of us see it different ways, which is fine. But it does amaze how people will often side with the protagonist or lead character, even if they are the most evil of the bunch. It's a trick used in a lot of books and shows and movies. We cheer for the one telling the story and take their sides in the arguments because we can see their point of view better and generally more favorably than the other characters. We are closer to them emotionally and more invested in them. Even when we know they may not be the best person. It's called being an anti-hero. Walt's an anti-hero for sure, he fits all the literary themes and definitions. But he may be even worse than that. There's a good chance, IMO he's the BAD GUY.

There are different dimensions to the character which why it is interesting. You can't simplify it as "good guy and bad guys".

The original Walt isn't completely erased yet and every once in a while even in the midst of his new underground crime world, the nerdy family guy comes out.

Is he vain (even borderline narcissistic)? Yes. Is he a control freak? Yes. Does he show signs of sociopathic of disassociation? Yes. Does he still have fatherly instincts and a protection instinct to his family and Jesse? I think he does. There is no reason why all those things can't be true.

(Spoiler Alert)

I think the writers even hinted at the "old Walt" still being in there in the last episode when it flash forwarded to the diner and the waitress was talking about Boston. A momentary light went on in Walt and he commented on the fact they have a great science museum. That was such a "dad" thing to say.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Daradon

But Gus didn't want to kill Jesse after he got Mike to babysit him. In fact, he wanted to take him under his wing. But Walt still poisoned Brock anyway.

Guess some of us see it different ways, which is fine. But it does amaze how people will often side with the protagonist or lead character, even if they are the most evil of the bunch. It's a trick used in a lot of books and shows and movies. We cheer for the one telling the story and take their sides in the arguments because we can see their point of view better and generally more favorably than the other characters. We are closer to them emotionally and more invested in them. Even when we know they may not be the best person. It's called being an anti-hero. Walt's an anti-hero for sure, he fits all the literary themes and definitions. But he may be even worse than that. There's a good chance, IMO he's the BAD GUY.

I didn't say Walt wasn't morally reprehensible, but his relationship with Jesse isn't one sided to benefit Walt only.

Also look at the lengths he has gone to protect Hank when Gus was threatening to kill him. It would have been better off for Walt to let that happen. Although now I am wondering if Hank is there just to keep Walt in the loop about the investigations going on.

[brocoli]

Emmy nods are out...Breaking bad with 6 nominations...Outstanding Drama Series"Broadwalk Empire""Breaking Bad""Downton Abbey""Game of Thrones""Homeland""Mad Men"Lead Actor in a Drama SeriesHugh Bonneville,"Downton Abbey"Steve Buscemi, "Boardwalk Empire"Bryan Cranston, "Breaking Bad"Michael C. Hall, "Dexter"Jon Hamm, "Mad Men"Damian Lewis, "Homeland"Supporting Actor in a Drama SeriesAaron Paul, "Breaking Bad"Giancarlo Esposito, "Breaking Bad"Brendan Coyle, "Downton Abbey"Jim Carter, "Downton Abbey"Jared Harris, "Mad Men"Peter Dinklage, "Game of Thrones"Supporting Actress in a Drama SeriesArchie Panjabi, "The Good Wife"Anna Gunn, "Breaking Bad"Maggie Smith, "Downton Abbey"Joanna Froggatt, "Downton Abbey"Christina Hendricks, "Mad Men"Christine Baranski, "The Good Wife"Guest Actor in a Drama SeriesMark Margolis, "Breaking Bad"Dylan Baker, "The Good Wife"Michael J. Fox, "The Good Wife"Jeremy Davies, "Justified"Ben Feldman, "Mad Men"Jason Ritter, "Parenthood"

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I didn't say Walt wasn't morally reprehensible, but his relationship with Jesse isn't one sided to benefit Walt only.

The Jesse character is basically a lemming. While it's true that Walt has figured out ways to manipulate him at times to do his bidding, he has also altered the landscape to prevent Jesse from going down paths that were not in his best interest.

I think a case can be made that Walt has no business deciding what is best for Jesse, but like you said, no one is saying Walt is morally reprehensible. It's more like a lesson on how morals become perverted when you mix parental instincts with cold heartedness required to survive in the violent and greed driven reality Walt finds himself in.

I do sense this is changing though and Walt is becoming more lost, so I can see him doing something to really betray Jesse, but until this point, I think most of Walt's moves have been justifiable in the bigger picture.

(Sorry Brock, but your being sick for a day is not a big deal in the big picture!)

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by brocoli

Emmy nods are out...Breaking bad with 6 nominations...Outstanding Drama Series"Broadwalk Empire""Breaking Bad""Downton Abbey""Game of Thrones""Homeland""Mad Men"Lead Actor in a Drama SeriesHugh Bonneville,"Downton Abbey"Steve Buscemi, "Boardwalk Empire"Bryan Cranston, "Breaking Bad"Michael C. Hall, "Dexter"Jon Hamm, "Mad Men"Damian Lewis, "Homeland"Supporting Actor in a Drama SeriesAaron Paul, "Breaking Bad"Giancarlo Esposito, "Breaking Bad"Brendan Coyle, "Downton Abbey"Jim Carter, "Downton Abbey"Jared Harris, "Mad Men"Peter Dinklage, "Game of Thrones"Supporting Actress in a Drama SeriesArchie Panjabi, "The Good Wife"Anna Gunn, "Breaking Bad"Maggie Smith, "Downton Abbey"Joanna Froggatt, "Downton Abbey"Christina Hendricks, "Mad Men"Christine Baranski, "The Good Wife"Guest Actor in a Drama SeriesMark Margolis, "Breaking Bad"Dylan Baker, "The Good Wife"Michael J. Fox, "The Good Wife"Jeremy Davies, "Justified"Ben Feldman, "Mad Men"Jason Ritter, "Parenthood"

Holy paragraph.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

But how long would that last? Gus took one of his loyal employees and slit his throat for making a mistake and to make a point. Jesse is a trainwreck and it surely would be only a matter of time until he screwed up. Being preferred over Walt didn't mean a heck of a lot. If you recall in the finale last year, Jesse was being handcuffed and forced to work at gunpoint before Walt came into the lab and ended everything. Jesse would have been gone as soon as Gus could get his own guy.

Even though Walt was in self-preservation mode, I don't think he was lying when he told Jesse that Gus would kill them both and it was only a matter of time.



There are different dimensions to the character which why it is interesting. You can't simplify it as "good guy and bad guys".

The original Walt isn't completely erased yet and every once in a while even in the midst of his new underground crime world, the nerdy family guy comes out.

Is he vain (even borderline narcissistic)? Yes. Is he a control freak? Yes. Does he show signs of sociopathic of disassociation? Yes. Does he still have fatherly instincts and a protection instinct to his family and Jesse? I think he does. There is no reason why all those things can't be true.

(Spoiler Alert)

I think the writers even hinted at the "old Walt" still being in there in the last episode when it flash forwarded to the diner and the waitress was talking about Boston. A momentary light went on in Walt and he commented on the fact they have a great science museum. That was such a "dad" thing to say.

I think that was just as much about that guy getting seen at the crime scene than just to make a point. They even hinted that would be a problem when Mike asked him if he was seen. But you are right, and I'm in no way saying Gus is better. Just that Walt makes the majority of decisions for himself and has, in ways already betrayed Jesse several times.

Jesse got handcuffed and forced to work only AFTER Gus got the idea that Jesse was still helping Walt or turning against him. After he had the meeting with him in the hospital chapel he figured out something was wrong because Jesse let it slip that Brock was poisoned and even hinted that Gus might be involved. You can watch Gus get really angry then calm right down to take control of the situation again. That's why Gus didn't go to his car to get blown up. He knew something was up after talking to Jesse and that Jesse was probably working with a Walt who might be out to get him. So in fact again that was Walt involving Jesse in trouble.

As for old Walt coming back, that's about a year in the future and Walt looks completely deflated. Who knows what's happened to him at this point, maybe his family died, maybe Hank is trying to arrest him, maybe he and Jesse are at odds. But whatever it is, what I took from it is that he knows he screwed up, his decisions hurt people, and none of it was worth it.

[Ashasx]

What message were the writers trying to send when Walt called his son Jesse when he was drugged up after Mike beat him up?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What message were the writers trying to send when Walt called his son Jesse when he was drugged up after Mike beat him up?

Oh I do agree they have bonded. As I said it's a complicated relationship and I do think Walt does legitimately cares for Jesse. And there is a father/son, mentor/student dynamic. I just have to agree with the original premise that Walt has betrayed Jesse already and that even if he cares for him on some level, his own pride and own goals come before all else and even to the detriment of those around him.

It's not like Jesse is the only one Walt seeks to control. Look what he said to Saul in the very last episode. And Saul has been remarkably stand up for Walt. Sure he's a sleazy lawyer, but he's gone over and beyond for Walt (and Jesse).

EDIT: To touch on the mentor/student dynamic and how Walt even uses that to make Jesse feel bad, recall the episode where Walt decides he's done so Jesse cooks a batch of his own and shows it to Walt. Walt is so upset that it's 'his' recipe being used and he's not in control, he berates and ridicules Jesse even though we find out later that batch is very very good. You can see in Jesse's actions he not just wants to continue the business but he wants to show Walt how he has learned, that he's not a screw up anymore. That he is worthy or praise and love. It's a father/son, mentor/student moment that Walt throws away out of his own pride.