[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Par

Because they are idiots.

More likely because the Flames wouldn't agree to that and the City is probably uninterested in investing in an arena because it's a loser financially. Which is the reason sports teams don't want to pay for them themselves.

Another grade A post from you.

[Bingo]

I say this every six months, but I just think the rhetoric and polar extremes in this have to be dampened down.

I don't have an opinion on what the city should or shouldn't do, that will be negotiated and the result will be the result.

I don't blame the city for wanting the owners to pay for almost all of it.
I don't blame the Flames for using the Edmonton blue print as a starting point.

But I'm pretty sure they'll work something out as Nenshi seems pretty pro Olympics and I doubt that flies with the existing Saddledome.

[Flash Walken]

The idea the Flames would forego the goodwill of owning a local sports team is ALMOST as unlikely as the league letting the team move when there are 3-5 currently unviable franchises in the league looking for better locations.

The BOG would never approve a sale to interests who wanted to move the team, and if the Flames themselves tried to move the team, the BOG would go over Bettman's head and vote against it as well.

Economics, baby.

[Senator Clay Davis]

What will be worked out is land and support infrastructure. But giving any significant amount of money to an arena or CalgaryNEXT or whatever drains a lot of political capital (and Nenshi truly doesn't have much left as a long term incumbent). And when times are tough for so many, it's a borderline impossible sell to put significant taxpayer dollars into this. Timing is everything, Edmonton's timing was simply much better than Calgary's. Calgary's timing for this to get public money was 2006-2010, they simply didn't do anything.

[dino7c]

Calgary Flames or no Calgary Flames (I can't see it either)

the city needs a new arena...a few years ago Nenshi could claim there weren't many acts skipping the city buy now? Its event after event we are losing and it not only effects quality of life it is also a major blow to the economy.

I am spending at least 5k in Edmonton this year...one person

I agree the owners should be paying a large sum, city should also step up IMO

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Timing is everything, Edmonton's timing was simply much better than Calgary's. Calgary's timing for this to get public money was 2006-2010, they simply didn't do anything.

I wonder if we'll ever get the inside story on why the Flames waited so long to start seriously looking at arena options. Was it just a matter of waiting until Edmonton set the bar for government lucre?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I wonder if we'll ever get the inside story on why the Flames waited so long to start seriously looking at arena options. Was it just a matter of waiting until Edmonton set the bar for government lucre?

That's what Ken King used to spin at every Flames Season Ticket Holder Event I ever went to.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Par

These kinds of statements are just idiotic, prices of oil will go up(they are down because of politics, not demand and when those that are playing politics with oil suffer, the oil prices will go up).

No, they're down because there's too much supply with more supply coming online as technology advances.

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Lol get a clue. They don't need to invest billions in real estate. Nothing is stopping them from selling their ownership in oil or the Flames.

It isn't a one way street, Alberta gave them the opportunity not the other way around.

They'll keep playing in the Dome until they no longer can instead of selling either the team or their assets.

Deny it all you want, I seriously doubt these guys want to be more invested in this oil economy than they already are. Hence why they're requesting that the government eats some of the risk as well.

Crazy notion.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Calgary Flames or no Calgary Flames (I can't see it either)

the city needs a new arena...a few years ago Nenshi could claim there weren't many acts skipping the city buy now? Its event after event we are losing and it not only effects quality of life it is also a major blow to the economy.

I am spending at least 5k in Edmonton this year...one person

I agree the owners should be paying a large sum, city should also step up IMO

So here's the obvious question: If Calgary builds a new arena, and it still gets skipped for Edmonton more often than not, then what? People are acting like a new arena is the silver bullet, that Calgary will never get skipped again, and in fact bands will start skipping Edmonton for Calgary. It's been discussed in the concert thread, but Edmonton promoters are apparently much easier to work with than Calgary ones. There's a lot more to bands skipping Calgary than just the building. Quite a bit more actually. So when the new building doesn't change that, then what?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

That's what Ken King used to spin at every Flames Season Ticket Holder Event I ever went to.

That they were waiting to see what Edmonton did?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

What a mess. You've become a caricature of yourself.

#66poundburrito

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That they were waiting to see what Edmonton did?

Yup. Going to see what they did, what funding they got, etc., and use their model as a guinea pig and build something better. Year, after year, after year that was the message.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But giving any significant amount of money to an arena or CalgaryNEXT or whatever drains a lot of political capital (and Nenshi truly doesn't have much left as a long term incumbent).

This isn't true. Nenshi is likely to win again this fall, and it is during this next four years that any decisions around the arena, Olympics, and community sports/recreational facilities will be made. I don't think decisions are made at the municipal level to placate an incoming mayor in 2021.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I wonder if we'll ever get the inside story on why the Flames waited so long to start seriously looking at arena options. Was it just a matter of waiting until Edmonton set the bar for government lucre?

Looking at it from a historical angle, I wonder how much the increasing price of oil impacted the scope and expectations for the project.

Oil basically doubled between 2004-2006, and then had similar acceleration between 06-08.

I think the size of the project grew significantly as the perceived budget grew, but then it had to be shelved while oil fluctuated. Now that the province is full of underemployed construction industry workers, now is the right time to take the project off the shelf because the decline in labour and construction costs make the massive CalgaryNEXT project more economically viable, but without $105 oil, the project needs significant public money for the owners to still be willing to put in there own.

Now that it looks like the City/Province may not be willing to toss a bunch of money at a mega project, the economic climate in the province makes now the right time for the owners to put in significantly less dollars for just a new rink, but to do it quickly before the economy threatens to take off again and construction costs increase.

[Torture]

Yup. Going to see what they did, what funding they got, etc., and use their model as a guinea pig and build something better. Year, after year, after year that was the message.

I thought the message was that the Flames were doing the business behind closed doors (whereas Edmonton was negotiating publicly) and that they were going to make their announcement when they had details worked out.

Of course, we all know how that worked out. A West Village rendering and powerpoint presentation took quite a few years to put together lol.

Whatever the message was, the Flames blew it. I don't blame the City or Province for not wanting to contribute to the Flames' half baked Calgary Next plan.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Torture

I thought the message was that the Flames were doing the business behind closed doors (whereas Edmonton was negotiating publicly) and that they were going to make their announcement when they had details worked out.

Of course, we all know how that worked out. A West Village rendering and powerpoint presentation took quite a few years to put together lol.

Whatever the message was, the Flames kinda blew it. I don't blame the City or Province for not wanting to contribute to the Flames' half baked Calgary Next plan.

Yeah it was always they were doing it behind the scenes and keeping and eye on what Edmonton was doing as they were farther along, followed by a shot that their rink would be better and when they announced it, the wait would be more than worth it.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

That's fine, your opinion and your are entitled to it. But if we aren't willing to support pro teams, or state of the Art entertainment facilities there are other cities that do, and will. You are seeing that in more and more in Pro Sports (3 relocations ongoing in the NFL), teams are going to where the money is.

Aren't the Chargers & Rams playing in a privately financed stadium though?
I believe the stadium being built in Vegas will be paid by the taxpayer, but IIRC, it will also be owned by the state, not by the Raiders' owner.

I don't follow the NFL very closely though, so perhaps I'm off here.

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

If the city doesn't want to support the Flames I think they have every right to move the team to someplace that will, they are for profit as you say.

There is not an available market in North America where these owners could make as much money as they are/will in Calgary. As well, when the league has teams that are still losing millions annually, I don't believe they'll allow the owners of one of their most profitable teams to relocate to a lesser market.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I can assure you guys a new stadium pumps far more money into the economy than the public library.

I am spending much of my entertainment dollar in Edmonton these days and its not by choice

I'm glad your anecdotal evidence weighs more heavily than the countless economic studies that have looked at this issue...

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Yeah it was always they were doing it behind the scenes and keeping and eye on what Edmonton was doing as they were farther along, followed by a shot that their rink would be better and when they announced it, the wait would be more than worth it.

I also remember Ken King saying he had all these amazing renderings in his office. Apparently he decided to keep them there when he showed that first awful PowerPoint presentation. Way to make a great first impression there Ken.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

So an owner will understand that the hypothetically-now-untapped market is worth the investment of putting up the bulk of the cash needed for said new arena/affiliated entertainment facilities. Exactly like in Winnipeg.

Not sure about that... you're saying that a team that has been losing boatloads of money will think they best way to stem that will be to move to a location where they can spend hundreds of millions more to build an arena so they can start making money back?

Besides, maybe it's just me, but doesn't the arena have to exist already before the NHL OKs the move? Someone would have to build the arena before they get a team, and they buy/move someone else.

Just not as simple as some people make it out to be.

Either way, I still don't think the Flames are moving anywhere.