The West Bank does not have Hamas as the leadership, and Israel builds settlements there too. This is an excuse used by Israel about Hamas, the truth is Israel will keep building and taking land and delaying negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate
The West Bank does not have Hamas as the leadership, and Israel builds settlements there too. This is an excuse used by Israel about Hamas, the truth is Israel will keep building and taking land and delaying negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate
Yes they’re building settlements. But the West Bank is nothing like Gaza. Israel has over 2 million Arabs. There are Arabs in the Israeli government. Completely different situations and circumstances. Doesn’t help Israel elected a hawkish far right government.
You think Israel deems the situation in Gaza desirable? My god, had the Palestinians elected anyone in 2005 that had any semblance of a peace plan, Gaza could have resembled Monaco. Instead, it’s going to continue to be a pile of ruin and misery for the unfortunate civilians there caught in the cross fire.
Unfortunately, any semblance of pity or compassion for their cause from the general Israeli population is likely now going to be lost after these events. I know mine is. This is Israel’s 9/11 and Gaza is going to bombarded. Terrible for the average Palestinian in Gaza but they reap what they sow by electing a terrorist organization.
Yes they’re building settlements. But the West Bank is nothing like Gaza. Israel has over 2 million Arabs. There are Arabs in the Israeli government. Completely different situations and circumstances. Doesn’t help Israel elected a hawkish far right government.
You think Israel deems the situation in Gaza desirable? My god, had the Palestinians elected anyone in 2005 that had any semblance of a peace plan, Gaza could have resembled Monaco. Instead, it’s going to continue to be a pile of ruin and misery for the unfortunate civilians there caught in the cross fire.
Unfortunately, any semblance of pity or compassion for their cause from the general Israeli population is likely now going to be lost after these events. I know mine is. This is Israel’s 9/11 and Gaza is going to bombarded. Terrible for the average Palestinian in Gaza but they reap what they sow by electing a terrorist organization.
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This is the problem, thinking that settlements are no big deal.
Last edited by WCW Nitro; 10-08-2023 at 08:18 PM.
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250 kids massacred by Hamas at the music festival.
Echoes of the Bataclan attack in Paris. It’s weird how murderous ultra-conservatives are excused in some quarters if they can be cast as anti-colonialists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
I know this is a generalization and assumption on my part, but looking a the types of people that were at the festival, many of them were probably ones with political leanings that supported Palestinian causes in Israel. By that, I mean young and liberal.
The people who carried out the attacks are the furthest thing from liberal. They’re violently ultra-conservative. In their minds, the liberal young people who attend music festivals - drug users, women who show their bodies, drink alcohol, and have premarital sex - are decadent scum who should be wiped off the face of the earth.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 10-08-2023 at 08:57 PM.
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Crazy thought, instead of sending a warship the U.S. should tell Israel to stop making the living conditions horrible for the Palestinians and tell it to stop building illegal settlements (which is an act of war).
Really crazy because:
1. Gaza is not under Palestinian leadership. It is under Hamas leadership, who came to power by beating Palestinian liberation organization in Gaza first in elections and then in the subsequent conflict.
2. Israel is not building settlements in Gaza
3. Not only Israel, but also Egypt is blockading Gaza, and the reason is that Gaza has been run by terrorists, who have overthrown Palestinian government, that was Fatah.
4. Palestinians recognize state of Israel. Hamas does not.
5. Crying about Gaza's poor living conditions is no different than crying about Russia being under sanctions (albeit the extent of isolation is obviously different, but the intention is the same)
As Henry Kissinger said 'Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance', they should have settled for peace when they had the chance with a reasonably moderate Israel back in the 60's or 70's or 80's or 90's but they never did, they have always held in their hearts the idea they can have everything back, and so they have done two things, they have been part of causing a hardening of attitudes in Israel and they have lost more and more land, now it's too late, they have lost, there will be no peace and their fate is to be gradually destroyed through decades and decades of violence and poverty, Israel will also be damaged and changed beyond recognition, gradually turning into a Jewish fundy theocracy as well
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This is the problem, thinking that settlements are no big deal.
If the settlements are such a big issue, then why not attack there? Why focus on innocent civilians nowhere near the settlements? If Hamas had focused their attacks against the Israeli military and/or the West Bank, then they might have a leg to stand on. But instead they chose to be cowardly barbarians, killing people that had no chance of fighting back, and then parading their dead bodies in the streets. Hamas and any Palestinians that support them are terrorists now on the same level as ISIS, and anyone here trying to justify their actions in any way are despicable
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The West Bank does not have Hamas as the leadership, and Israel builds settlements there too. This is an excuse used by Israel about Hamas, the truth is Israel will keep building and taking land and delaying negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate
What do you mean by "too"? As if Israel is building settlements in Gaza strip. They don't. They actually handed Gaza over to Palestinian government. But it was so weak that in the upcoming elections people of Gaza voted to be run by Hamas. This resulted a deadly clash between Hamas and elected Palestinian president, leading to a brief civil war, which was won by Hamas in Gaza, while Fatah remained in control in West Bank.
Speaking of settlements, Hamas say they recognize 1967 borders. Yet, they justify yesterday's massacre by saying that those civilians were living in illegal settlements, and thus were not civilians. Problem is, all those towns Hamas has infiltrated, are on Israel land as per 1967 borders. Basically, the "illegal settlements" term comes up every times Hamas feels like killing.
1. Gaza is not under Palestinian leadership. It is under Hamas leadership, who came to power by overthrowing Palestinian government in Gaza
2. Israel is not building settlements in Gaza
3. Not only Israel, but also Egypt is blockading Gaza, and the reason is that Gaza has been run by terrorists, who have overthrown Palestinian government, that was Fatah.
4. Palestinians recognize state of Israel. Hamas does not.
5. Crying about Gaza's poor living conditions is no different than crying about Russia being under sanctions (albeit the extent of isolation is obviously different, but the intention is the same)
Hamas came to power via elections. Israel has impemented a sea,air, and land blockade in Gaza, and the conditions are such that Human Rights Watch called it an open air prison. Israel just now has blocked fuel and electricity to Gaza. Israel does actions that would be considered as acts of war on a daily basis, but yes let's cheer it on as it once again prepare to go crazy bombing a heavily populated area
Hamas came to power via elections. Israel has impemented a sea,air, and land blockade in Gaza, and the conditions are such that Human Rights Watch called it an open air prison. Israel just now has blocked fuel and electricity to Gaza. Israel does actions that would be considered as acts of war on a daily basis, but yes let's cheer it on as it once again prepare to go crazy bombing a heavily populated area
How do you expect Israel to respond? if it was Canada what would we do? we all live on stolen land, none of us are moving back to where we came from, we are all just as guilty of land theft as Israel, the only difference is our native population accepts as best they can their loss and probably because of that we feel guilty and try to be nice to them, but if they gunned down 200 kids at Shambhala in order to get their traditional land back we would eviscerate the res just as quickly
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Hamas came to power via elections. Israel has impemented a sea,air, and land blockade in Gaza, and the conditions are such that Human Rights Watch called it an open air prison. Israel just now has blocked fuel and electricity to Gaza. Israel does actions that would be considered as acts of war on a daily basis, but yes let's cheer it on as it once again prepare to go crazy bombing a heavily populated area
Hamas indeed won elections, in 2006, which proved to be the last elections held in Gaza. However, those were government elections, not president elections, and the president was from Fatah. This led to a bloody conflict in 2007 between Fatah and Hamas, that resulted in all pro-president authorities being killed or expelled. So while the part about winning elections is true, however they came to actual power by forcibly overthrowing non-Hamas president (who also was elected). There were no elections in Gaza ever since. Much like Russia, Gaza failed to build a democracy and fell into a dictatorship.
Why you keep talking about Israel blockading Gaza and keep ignoring that Egypt does the same? There was no blockade before Hamas, that is an officially recognized terrorist group, came to power. If Gaza citizens elected them to govern then, what kind of lives they deserve? Russians are suffering - albeit to much lesser extent - because they elected Putin and later failed to stop him from doing whatever he pleases. Peoples prosper if they keep a tight grip on their country. Peoples suffer if they lose control and let madmen run their state. Gaza citizens are suffering because they voted for terrorists. Unsurprisingly, that proved to be the last time they had a chance to vote.
How do you expect Israel to respond? if it was Canada what would we do? we all live on stolen land, none of us are moving back to where we came from, we are all just as guilty of land theft as Israel, the only difference is our native population accepts as best they can their loss and probably because of that we feel guilty and try to be nice to them, but if they gunned down 200 kids at Shambhala in order to get their traditional land back we would eviscerate the res just as quickly
AFC, I will dispute some of that comment. Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years and are the indigenous people there, at least that is what they believe. They did not create Israel to kick out Palestinians either, the nation was built as a nation to offer a safe space for Jews, but welcoming to other people, including those already there (now called Palestinians).
Crap hit the fan when Israel was invaded after the UN partition and here we are. I would say that invading Israel did not work out well for Palestinians, but Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel since. Palestinians have instead brought terror attack after terror attack.
It isn't exactly fair to say Israel stole the country, that is not true.
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The other issue for Gaza especially but for the west bank as well is what exactly does anyone think that Israel can or will do to make things better even assuming the two sides aren't locked in a bloody religious war? Gaza is a prison because 2 million refugees from the 1949 war live in a tiny strip of land, it isnt realistic to expect Israel, who were attacked and then won, to hand back land they have held since '49 or '67 or even '72, the settlements are ####ty but there is no land in Gaza taken by settlers, all the settlements in Gaza were forced out by Israel in 2004, Gaza is as independent as it can be, Gaza is what a free Palestine looks like, poor overcrowded and utterly dependent on Israel.
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AFC, I will dispute some of that comment. Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years and are the indigenous people there, at least that is what they believe. They did not create Israel to kick out Palestinians either, the nation was built as a nation to offer a safe space for Jews, but welcoming to other people, including those already there (now called Palestinians).
Crap hit the fan when Israel was invaded after the UN partition and here we are. I would say that invading Israel did not work out well for Palestinians, but Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel since. Palestinians have instead brought terror attack after terror attack.
It isn't exactly fair to say Israel stole the country, that is not true.
None of that matters though, in practice there was a land that those Palestinian families lived on for centuries, maybe a thousand years, they lived there under the Ottomans, they lived there under the Mamelukes and the British, a fair chunk of them were no doubt Jewish or Samaritan originally and converted for a quiet life so long ago the family has forgotten, they converted to Islam when the Umayyads or the abbasids took over, they lost everything in '49 and found themselves in Gaza as refugees, you can argue that 'Palestine' wasn't stolen but their farm was, they used to have a little land and now they dont, it wasnt even their fault they lost it, Egypt and Jordan started a war, now I would guess the average Palestinian was rooting for the Arab legion to win but they weren't part of it, they just lost everything because of it
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Gaza citizens are suffering because they voted for terrorists. Unsurprisingly, that proved to be the last time they had a chance to vote.
Not quite because they voted for terrorists, but that the terrorists have been attacking Israel nearly since day one. Perhaps in a different universe Hamas came out with peace, all would be good. But they came out guns ablazing.
Israel made the peace offering by giving all of Gaza to Palestinians (including removing every single Jew from the region), Hamas thanked them with rockets,
Israel believed the safest path forward that did not require getting their soldiers or Palestinian civilians killed was a blockade (to limit weapons being imported).
The fastest way to tell when someone is compromised by misinformation (that in my opinion is anti-Semitic in nature and written to vilify Jews) is the argument that Hamas fires rockets due to settlements (wrong) and the other argument is criticizing the blockade/open air prison without being aware of why Israel is taking that approach (saving lives). These two arguments are so incorrect and hateful, especially when being used against a country the other side of the planet, and typically they are not accompanied by criticism of truly evil regimes that deserve their real attention.
More people have died in Syria in their current conflict in orders of magnitude greater than the entire Israel/Palestine conflict, critics of Israel don't care. Palestinians are members of the Israeli government and are very successful in Israeli universities, prospering compared to much of the world. Palestinians would be best off making peace and working out a fair land swap. My friends in Israel are mad right now, all they wanted is peace, get vilified everywhere like they are terrible, and are watching so many people double down on the villain Israeli narrative. Enough is enough. After watching so many people in Canada and elsewhere cheer for Hamas, time to call each person out with these thoughts. They should not be welcome here. The posters in this very thread are disgusting, in particular those that have not learned a single thing.
Hamas is terrible and do terrible things and is the primary enemy of the Palestinian people in Gaza. If Hamas went away, there is a chance at peace. I hope the blockade continues and something is figured out, the alternative is just death and destruction.
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Let me address the "Open Air Prison" part too. Gaza government does not recognize Israel state. So how Israel can let Gaza citizens into Israel, if they don't even recognize Israel at the first place? Would you let me into your house as a guest if I claim that I am the owner and I don't recognize and respect your ownership?
And even then, there would be no Open Air Prison if Egypt let Gazans cross the border into Egypt and then into the outside world. But even Muslim Arabs hate Hamas.
AFC, I will dispute some of that comment. Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years and are the indigenous people there, at least that is what they believe. They did not create Israel to kick out Palestinians either, the nation was built as a nation to offer a safe space for Jews, but welcoming to other people, including those already there (now called Palestinians).
Crap hit the fan when Israel was invaded after the UN partition and here we are. I would say that invading Israel did not work out well for Palestinians, but Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel since. Palestinians have instead brought terror attack after terror attack.
It isn't exactly fair to say Israel stole the country, that is not true.
Yeah well, people believe all kinds of things, the truth of which is dubious.
The Torah's license to grant land ownership is questionable at best.
Anyways, thats not the point here.
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None of that matters though, in practice there was a land that those Palestinian families lived on for centuries, maybe a thousand years, they lived there under the Ottomans, they lived there under the Mamelukes and the British, a fair chunk of them were no doubt Jewish or Samaritan originally and converted for a quiet life so long ago the family has forgotten, they converted to Islam when the Umayyads or the abbasids took over, they lost everything in '49 and found themselves in Gaza as refugees, you can argue that 'Palestine' wasn't stolen but their farm was, they used to have a little land and now they dont, it wasnt even their fault they lost it, Egypt and Jordan started a war, now I would guess the average Palestinian was rooting for the Arab legion to win but they weren't part of it, they just lost everything because of it
Thanks AFC, and I appreciate the discussion. Without a doubt, I agree with you, it was very messy and people do lose wars/lives/property. Pictures from Ukraine are horrible and terrifying, entire towns in rubble.
Not all Palestinians lost everything, some certainly did. Much of what we see is spillover from Jordan but they abandoned them and it seems to be in Israel's hands. The entire sequence of events suck. Israeli people were/are terrified of what took place yesterday, going back since independence. What we know as ISIS is what Israel defended the borders for, at least that image of militants.
For sure land was lost, not all, not the whole thing, just there was a massive war, there was no way Israel was letting people back in who abandoned them. Note that not all Palestinians left, those that stayed within Israel are citizens.
Never in my life have I seen such anger in Israel, for years and years they hoped for a glimmer of peace from their neighbors, instead they got Hamas.
Yeah well, people believe all kinds of things, the truth of which is dubious.
The Torah's license to grant land ownership is questionable at best.
Anyways, thats not the point here.
This doesn't make sense and is not appropriate. Jews have lived there for thousands of years. Point is they didn't suddenly walk in and kick people out, they were there before Islam was even a concept.
