Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

Brutal, Cowperson. Just brutal. He f-ing killed a kid, and that's great instincts because the kid wasn't a saint? Give your damn head a shake.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

If we're going to play this game...

This is a case of an armed man with a history of violence (we've all seen his mugshot), no affiliation to any actual "neighourhood watch, driving around a community, openly looking for trouble. He was ignoring direct advice from the local police force, got into a confrontation with an innocent child, and shot him in the chest.

Good instincts indeed.

Anyway, we've heard all the stories about how this negro thug was abusing this poor man, but there he is on the television, half an hour after this life-and-death struggle, and he doesn't have a scratch on him. His broken nose didn't even bleed on his shirt or jacket. The open wound on his head is healed right up. Remarkable. He must be hanging out in David Banner's laboratory, when he's not phoning the cops or shooting people.

[GP_Matt]

Has anyone considered that the police may be 'Juking the Stats'? It is an election year after all and it is important to keep the murder rate down.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Has anyone considered that the police may be 'Juking the Stats'? It is an election year after all and it is important to keep the murder rate down.

Seriously?

[GP_Matt]

No, I didn't think green text was needed.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

No, I didn't think green text was needed.

Sorry, image didn't work for me so I was a bit confused.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

If we're going to play this game...

This is a case of an armed man with a history of violence (we've all seen his mugshot), .

Well, if it makes you feel better, an alternative photo of a respectable citizen George Zimmerman, not taken after a night of roughhousing:

Originally Posted by Sowa

I agree! Great Instincts. Neighborhood watch people should all be blessed with the instincts that allow you to reason following someone around a neighborhood that looks suspicious and not just call it in and let the police deal with it.

As always, there are two sides . . . .

Zimmerman's father - the only person close to him to talk on the record - said this today::

Robert Zimmerman said his son lost sight of Trayvon and went looking for an address to give police. Trayvon later approached George Zimmerman, punched him in the nose, knocked him to the ground and started beating him . . . .

“Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of ‘you’re going to die now’ or ‘you’re going die tonight,’ ” Robert Zimmerman told WOFL’s Valerie Boey. “He continued to beat George, and at some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did.”

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...tml#more-53073

Basically, he's saying his son broke off the pursuit and was found by the victim.

Zimmerman had told police he was in his SUV following Treyvan. The police dispatcher told him he should stay in his SUV. Zimmerman's side of the story is he lost contact with Trayvan and got out to look, then was walking back to his SUV when he was confronted by the victim.

On the opposite side, the victim's girlfriend said this:

"She says: 'Run.' He says, 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast,'" Crump said, quoting the girl.

The girl later heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" Another man asked, "What are you doing around here?" Crump said.

After Martin encountered Zimmerman, the girl thinks she heard a scuffle "because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech," Crump said. The phone call ended before the girl heard any gunshots.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...95584616bd8d8f

The girlfriend seems to put some time between her initial conversation about "run" and the moment when a confrontation occurs. She also says Treyvan initiated the conversation with Zimmerman.

Neither of those points is actually inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

The police instruction for Zimmerman to stay in his vehicle in this context is basically advice and not a lawful order.

Most of the news accounts seem to agree he had organized a neighbourhood watch. Police usually advise neighbourhood watches not to patrol. Most agree Zimmerman was a 'cop-wannabe.' His patrolling activities aren't helping his side.

It's hard to say if Zimmerman is making his account up, the part about "how" he ended up face to face with the victim and if he did break off contact earlier as he said after the 911 operator advised him to do so.

Nevertheless, it does look like Zimmerman has enough witnesses to confirm he was being beaten up and was on his back. There are too many unrelated people involved, including other officers at the scene, probably a second paramedic, the eyewitness, etc, to make a conspiracy of silence stand for long. And that's before getting into why all of them would be motivated to do so to help George Zimmerman, someone few, in any, of them knew.

At the moment, we don't know if the eyewitness can confirm the death threats the father is claiming were uttered by the victim.

From the AP analysis:

Federal prosecutors could also accuse Zimmerman of using his official authority to violate Martin's rights — known as a "color of law" case — but they would have to prove that Zimmerman was acting in some official capacity, similar to a police officer or government official. Zimmerman was a volunteer neighborhood watchman.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...95584616bd8d8f

He would need an elevated gun permit to use a weapon in an official capacity. He's better off forgetting the neighbourhood watch thing in this context.

As always, these obscure cases are interesting . . . . . appealing to the human interest in mysteries. It's why there is always one or two on the go in the national concsiousness. And why something like this is useful to certain political points of view.

Interestingly, Zimmerman is a registered Democrat.

We'll see what happens. But I'd bet he won't be charged.

Cowperson

[Hack&Lube]

We don't know all the facts and I think it's reprehensible than anyone was killed. Zimmerman certainly has some issues he needs to deal with...but there has definitely been a media bias out there with how these two have been portrayed. Zimmerman's picture in the media is usually been one where it looks like a mugshot of a felon and Trayvon's has usually been a picture of him as a clean-cut, cute looking kid from years ago, not the tatooed 6'3 guy that he actually was at the time of the killing.

If Zimmerman is guilty of judging Trayvon's character based on his appearance, a lot of the media and people who have made judgments on this story based on media bias are guilty of that as well.

[Rockin' Flames]

Congresswoman Brown claims she is concerned about all kids and gives an example but when called on it couldn't even remember the childs name she was referencing.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Well, if it makes you feel better, an alternative photo of a respectable citizen George Zimmerman, not taken after a night of roughhousing:

You say roughhousing, I say assaulting a police officer. Tomato, To-mah-to. But he is wearing a tie in that picture, so I do feel more inclined to believe him now than I did before.

As for conspiracies and witnesses and whatnot, I don't know anything about that, but I know my eyes aren't in on it. If this man was so viciously assaulted, had his nose broken, his head beaten into the concrete and was in a life or death struggle with a much larger man who attacked him in the dark, why does he look so casual and unharmed half an hour later?

That's the real mystery.

Well, that and what would have happened if this gun-toting moron had just left that kid alone. Would he have watched the second half of the basketball game, or would he have changed the channel?

He was up to no good, that much has been established.

Oh well. Enough of this. I'm drunk and I just ran some boy over in a school zone. Now I have to find out if he ever skipped class, so I can mount my defense.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

You either don't get out much, or have never had kids. I thought you were an old guy, so I assumed you had. Maybe I was wrong?

Remnants of weed in a baggie, writing WTF on a door handle, and having a screwdriver. Yeah, if that doesn't scream stalk the guy at night and shoot him, I don't know what does.

Sounds like any other kid. Unless you mean any kids that are visible in the neighbourhood are the types to be followed and reported on?

Here's hoping you don't belong to any wannabe cop groups yourself.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by cowperson

Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by zimmerman!!!

fyp

[soulchoice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowperson
The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

Originally Posted by flameswin

Brutal, Cowperson. Just brutal. He f-ing killed a kid, and that's great instincts because the kid wasn't a saint? Give your damn head a shake.

Exactly, this kids previous past history has nothing to do with this tragic shooting at all. Thus far, with the evidence presented so far, he was killed in cold blood. The instincts comment about Zimmerman is one of the most absurd and stupidest things I have read on CP in all my years.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Well, if it makes you feel better, an alternative photo of a respectable citizen George Zimmerman, not taken after a night of roughhousing:






As always, there are two sides . . . .

Zimmerman's father - the only person close to him to talk on the record - said this today::

Robert Zimmerman said his son lost sight of Trayvon and went looking for an address to give police. Trayvon later approached George Zimmerman, punched him in the nose, knocked him to the ground and started beating him . . . .

“Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of ‘you’re going to die now’ or ‘you’re going die tonight,’ ” Robert Zimmerman told WOFL’s Valerie Boey. “He continued to beat George, and at some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did.”

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...tml#more-53073

Basically, he's saying his son broke off the pursuit and was found by the victim.

Zimmerman had told police he was in his SUV following Treyvan. The police dispatcher told him he should stay in his SUV. Zimmerman's side of the story is he lost contact with Trayvan and got out to look, then was walking back to his SUV when he was confronted by the victim.

On the opposite side, the victim's girlfriend said this:

"She says: 'Run.' He says, 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast,'" Crump said, quoting the girl.

The girl later heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" Another man asked, "What are you doing around here?" Crump said.

After Martin encountered Zimmerman, the girl thinks she heard a scuffle "because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech," Crump said. The phone call ended before the girl heard any gunshots.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...95584616bd8d8f

The girlfriend seems to put some time between her initial conversation about "run" and the moment when a confrontation occurs. She also says Treyvan initiated the conversation with Zimmerman.

Neither of those points is actually inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

The police instruction for Zimmerman to stay in his vehicle in this context is basically advice and not a lawful order.

Most of the news accounts seem to agree he had organized a neighbourhood watch. Police usually advise neighbourhood watches not to patrol. Most agree Zimmerman was a 'cop-wannabe.' His patrolling activities aren't helping his side.

It's hard to say if Zimmerman is making his account up, the part about "how" he ended up face to face with the victim and if he did break off contact earlier as he said after the 911 operator advised him to do so.

Nevertheless, it does look like Zimmerman has enough witnesses to confirm he was being beaten up and was on his back. There are too many unrelated people involved, including other officers at the scene, probably a second paramedic, the eyewitness, etc, to make a conspiracy of silence stand for long. And that's before getting into why all of them would be motivated to do so to help George Zimmerman, someone few, in any, of them knew.

At the moment, we don't know if the eyewitness can confirm the death threats the father is claiming were uttered by the victim.

From the AP analysis:

Federal prosecutors could also accuse Zimmerman of using his official authority to violate Martin's rights — known as a "color of law" case — but they would have to prove that Zimmerman was acting in some official capacity, similar to a police officer or government official. Zimmerman was a volunteer neighborhood watchman.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...95584616bd8d8f

He would need an elevated gun permit to use a weapon in an official capacity. He's better off forgetting the neighbourhood watch thing in this context.

As always, these obscure cases are interesting . . . . . appealing to the human interest in mysteries. It's why there is always one or two on the go in the national concsiousness. And why something like this is useful to certain political points of view.

Interestingly, Zimmerman is a registered Democrat.

We'll see what happens. But I'd bet he won't be charged.

Cowperson

My guess is Zimmerman that got out of his truck and approached the kid possibly tried to stop him from walking away, and the kid who was likely scared ####less having had a dark SUV with a latino dude slowly following him around in an area that is largely dominated by latino drug gangs and having no way to know what the idiot was up, probably, when he thought he was trapped, then took a swing at Zimmerman in order to try and get away.
That is the story that likely allows both versions to be somewhat correct, as I have always found there is always an element of truth to both sides, My guess is the kid swung a punch in order to try and get away or maybe struggled with Zimmerman if he grabbed the kid.

Nothing about the lead up to the shooting suggests the kid would for no reason go postal on the 'wanna be cop', everything about it tends to lean towards the idiot taking his cop fantasies way to seriously and trying to stop the kid, I will grant you he probably wasn't planning on shoooting the kid, but I will bet dollars to donuts Zimmerman grabbed the kid and that initiated the struggle.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My guess is Zimmerman that got out of his truck and approached the kid possibly tried to stop him from walking away, and the kid who was likely scared ####less having had a dark SUV with a latino dude slowly following him around in an area that is largely dominated by latino drug gangs and having no way to know what the idiot was up, probably, when he thought he was trapped, then took a swing at Zimmerman in order to try and get away.
That is the story that likely allows both versions to be somewhat correct, as I have always found there is always an element of truth to both sides, My guess is the kid swung a punch in order to try and get away or maybe struggled with Zimmerman if he grabbed the kid.

Nothing about the lead up to the shooting suggests the kid would for no reason go postal on the 'wanna be cop', everything about it tends to lean towards the idiot taking his cop fantasies way to seriously and trying to stop the kid, I will grant you he probably wasn't planning on shoooting the kid, but I will bet dollars to donuts Zimmerman grabbed the kid and that initiated the struggle.

The girlfriend's account of her telephone conversation with him pretty much says otherwise.

He refused his girlfriends request to flee.

She insists the victim - her boyfriend - said the first words in the fatal confrontation. It was an angry question directed at George Zimmerman, demanding an answer.

As I noted earlier, the story from the girlfriend, relayed through her lawyer, doesn't actually contradict Zimmerman's account. He says he was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted by the victim.

It will be interesting to know if her story, as relayed through her lawyer, does indeed confirm a lengthy interval between her request that he "run" and the final confrontation that she heard.

Exactly, this kids previous past history has nothing to do with this tragic shooting at all. Thus far, with the evidence presented so far, he was killed in cold blood. The instincts comment about Zimmerman is one of the most absurd and stupidest things I have read on CP in all my years.

Thank you. That's a lofty and difficult to achieve honour on this board.

I actually didn't say his previous history had something to do with this shooting.

I merely pointed out this 6' 3" child, who had "No Limit Ni. . . . . " tattooed on his body, who sported gold teeth, who couldn't explain 12 pieces of women's jewellry and a flathead screwdriver he was caught with, who was caught with an empty weed bag, who had a cousin tweet him "You ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver" only a few days before the suspension for pot traces . . . . . . might not be the saintly child we initially heard about.

It seems to be important to some that he appear to be a defenceless child.

I pointed out the obvious . . . . it wouldn't be unusual for a neighbourhood watch to find him a likely candidate to phone in if they didn't know him and saw him strolling through the neighbourhood.

We can argue whether or not Zimmerman should have left it at that - and I agree with that point - but the action of profiling this "child" as a potential problem in a neighbourhood beset by burglary issues shouldn't really be as controversial as it has been.

By the way, Zimmerman says he did leave it at that. His account is that he stopped the pursuit when asked and got out of his vehicle to look at an address to give to the police as a locator, only to be confronted by the victim as he went back to his vehicle.

Lastly, the evidence of police and an eyewitness contradicts your claim the victim was hunted and shot in cold blood.

On the evidence of the eyewitness, supported by police and paramedic observations in the aftermath, the victim did indeed have Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him up.

The recommendation from the investigating inspector for a charge of Negligent Manslaughter, as I noted earlier, seems to be a concession that the shooter did defend himself in the end but that he bears some responsibility for the situation ending in a confrontation resulting in death.

Zimmerman's account does not concede that final point.

You either don't get out much, or have never had kids. I thought you were an old guy, so I assumed you had. Maybe I was wrong?

Remnants of weed in a baggie, writing WTF on a door handle, and having a screwdriver. Yeah, if that doesn't scream stalk the guy at night and shoot him, I don't know what does.

Sounds like any other kid. Unless you mean any kids that are visible in the neighbourhood are the types to be followed and reported on?

Here's hoping you don't belong to any wannabe cop groups yourself.

See my description of this innocent "child" above.

In zero tolerance USA school systems, black kids are far more likely to be suspended than whites.

As a black male in the Miami-Dade County school system, Treyvan had a 41% chance of being suspended once.

I do not know what the odds are that he would have been suspended three times before his 18th birthday but even for a black child, that would probably driven him down to a lower, more exceptional percentage.

There are four times as many blacks in college than there are in American prisons . . . . but a black male without a high school education has almost a 50% likelihood of serving prison time.

Young Treyvan seemed well on his way to fitting into a statistical stereotype.

If this man was so viciously assaulted, had his nose broken, his head beaten into the concrete and was in a life or death struggle with a much larger man who attacked him in the dark, why does he look so casual and unharmed half an hour later?

My good sir, don't tell me you are profiling him based on his appearance?!!!

Really? Half an hour? How about an hour or two later. After he had been treated by a paramedic in the police cruiser.

You, of all people, are one of the last people I'd suspect on this board of going in for conspiracies . . . . . but you've got a difficult row to hoe in explaining away the eyewitness, the officer observing him at close range, and the paramedic treating him for very specific injuries.

I don't have to explain the video at all. I could just say he looked distraught and dishevelled and say that's what MY observations were, then point at all the other stuff that actually happened at the scene hours earlier.

Unless you want to point to a conspiracy, the after-the-fact video is fairly irrelevant.

Cowperson

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I actually didn't say his previous history had something to do with this shooting.

I merely pointed out this 6' 3" child, who had "No Limit Ni. . . . . " tattooed on his body, who sported gold teeth, who couldn't explain 12 pieces of women's jewellry and a flathead screwdriver he was caught with, who was caught with an empty weed bag, who had a cousin tweet him "You ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver" only a few days before the suspension for pot traces . . . . . . might not be the saintly child we initially heard about.

It seems to be important to some that he appear to be a defenceless child.

I pointed out the obvious . . . . it wouldn't be unusual for a neighbourhood watch to find him a likely candidate to phone in if they didn't know him and saw him strolling through the neighbourhood.

We can argue whether or not Zimmerman should have left it at that - and I agree with that point - but the action of profiling this "child" as a potential problem in a neighbourhood beset by burglary issues shouldn't really be as controversial as it has been.

I guess I don't understand this train of thought.

None of those bits of information that you find salient (the tattoo, the weed) would be available to Mr. Zimmerman at the time that he made his decision.

So how can you say that it is "obvious" to point out that Trayvon would be suspicious?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I guess I don't understand this train of thought.

None of those bits of information that you find salient (the tattoo, the weed) would be available to Mr. Zimmerman at the time that he made his decision.

So how can you say that it is "obvious" to point out that Trayvon would be suspicious?

6'3" hoodied kid not known to be a resident in a community beset by burglaries. And, as it turned out, he didn't live there.

Zimmerman phoned it in. Neighbourhood watches are set up for that circumstance. He had that right.

The kid also has the right to walk where he wants (although one of his suspensions from school was for walking in a place he wasn't supposed to be) just like Zimmerman or any other citizen has the right to phone it in as well.

From the point of view of statistical probability, I don't mind if Zimmerman added emphasis because the kid was black. That's not necessarily racist. It could be considered practical. Admittedly, however, that would be a controversial position to mouth ahead of time to a police dispatcher if it all goes south on you.

For all you or I know, Treyvan might have got that women's jewellry he couldn't explain from the same neighbourhood a few weeks earlier.

The rest of the night is open to discussion.

Cowperson

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

6'3" hoodied kid not known to be a resident in a community beset by burglaries. And, as it turned out, he didn't live there.

I see.

I guess I was asking why your previous post added specific parts of Trayvon's "record" as being potential causes for Zimmerman's rationalization, since Zimmerman would not have known any of those things at the time.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

See my description of this innocent "child" above.

In zero tolerance USA school systems, black kids are far more likely to be suspended than whites.

As a black male in the Miami-Dade County school system, Treyvan had a 41% chance of being suspended once.

I do not know what the odds are that he would have been suspended three times before his 18th birthday but even for a black child, that would probably driven him down to a lower, more exceptional percentage.

There are four times as many blacks in college than there are in American prisons . . . . but a black male without a high school education has almost a 50% likelihood of serving prison time.

Young Treyvan seemed well on his way to fitting into a statistical stereotype.

Why do I care what the odds were of him being suspended? How does this support in any way what you said earlier about Zimmerman and his "good instincts" in following Martin?

You posted saying Zimmerman had "good instincts" in following Martin, because Martin had been suspended from school prior. The actual suspensions , however, are hardly supportive of any type of violent criminal stereotype. To believe that "good instincts" lead to the ultimate death of a young man that committed no criminal act is ridiculous.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Why do I care what the odds were of him being suspended? How does this support in any way what you said earlier about Zimmerman and his "good instincts" in following Martin?

You posted saying Zimmerman had "good instincts" in following Martin, because Martin had been suspended from school prior. The actual suspensions , however, are hardly supportive of any type of violent criminal stereotype. To believe that "good instincts" lead to the ultimate death of a young man that committed no criminal act is ridiculous.

A lot of Cowerson's posts in this thread are quite baffling.