2024/2025 Trade Rumours and Speculation thread

[Ashasx]

The playoffs this year are making me even more apprehensive of the Flames trying to retool this roster to compete for next year.

Islanders, Capitals, Kings. All teams that limped into the playoffs that have been absolutely put to rest in the first round.

That is the future that awaits the Flames if they somehow make the playoffs next year. I don't think it's realistic to expect a Florida style run from this team when you can't predict star seasons from the players on this roster. There are no young players in this organization waiting to emerge as franchise players.

This is the year to bottom out, and I'm hoping Conroy sees this first round and sees it too.

[Toonage]

Isles & Caps aren't teams that have retooled.

The Kings however went full Canada and rushed their rebuild after a high draft pick.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Washington is like the Flames with Iggy during his end. Just trying to hang on.

Islanders are in shambles.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Isles & Caps aren't teams that have retooled.

The Kings however went full Canada and rushed their rebuild after a high draft pick.

I never said that they retooled, but limping into the playoffs is not a great strategy most of the time.

[Saqe]

Plenty of young guys could be available. Cutter Gauthier was just traded because he didn't want to sign with Philly, 5th OA pick. Zegras is available, 9th OA. Kakko? 2nd OA. Kotkaniemi? 3rd OA. I'm sure all these guys are available, figuring out which ones are the ones that just need a change of scenery is the key. And there are probably several more.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I never said that they retooled, but limping into the playoffs is not a great strategy most of the time.

My mistake. First sentence seemed to flow into the next and I thought that was the comparison. Reading is difficult this early

[Major Major]

Pinto would be a guy I'd go after. I think that is going to be one hell of a negotiation for his contract in Ottawa.

But I wouldn't be moving picks and I don't think Ottawa would be interested in them anyway.

[Rhett44]

The most similar team to the Flames to me is the Jets. Except we don't have a Schiefele or an elite goalie if Markstrom is gone. And they have a lot more talent than us and depth.

That is another team where management refused to rebuild. And it will be many years of first round exits as a result. They are not bad enough to miss playoffs but not good enough to win anything.

I am hoping management will be patient, but I am sure the ownership wants playoffs ASAP, even if it means another decade of playoff 1st round losses and mediocrity.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Plenty of young guys could be available. Cutter Gauthier was just traded because he didn't want to sign with Philly, 5th OA pick. Zegras is available, 9th OA. Kakko? 2nd OA. Kotkaniemi? 3rd OA. I'm sure all these guys are available, figuring out which ones are the ones that just need a change of scenery is the key. And there are probably several more.

None of those guys are going to make a meaningful enough impact to get the Flames into the playoffs.

In Zegras case he is just going form lottery team to another.

I think people are jumping the gun on moves that have not even happened. Just like all the whining during the Lindholm saga, people getting upset over things that have not happened.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Seems to be a lot of angst about the Flames retooling or rebuilding.


Go and listen to Conroy. When he says: "Goal is playoffs", it means that he doesn't want the culture to go away. He explained himself well enough to have everyone understand that the Flames aren't realistically going to make the playoffs without actually saying it. It had more to do with accepting a losing culture and ending up with a poor environment in which to develop young players.


Conroy has been specifically asked about rebuilding vs retooling, and he provided his definition. His definition of retool aligns perfectly with a rebuild, and his definition of rebuild is 'scorched earth'. Call it a rebuild or a retool or whatever you like, but the Flames are currently in a multi-season build in which they are building through the draft. He is open to trading some futures form young players, but he also says that teams don't often want to trade them, so we probably shouldn't be expecting it.


He also preaches "This will take some time". Sure, infer if you want that this means by the start of next season, but it sure seemed more in-line with a multi-season thing to me.


Flames are not competing. They are not going for the playoffs. They are not going to trade their futures for win-now players. They are going to build through the draft, and they will probably sell more players as this goes on. Given what he has said, and what his moves thus far have been, it would shock me if the Flames don't have a bottom 5 finish this year. On paper right now, who is worse than the Flames? There are a small handful of teams at best, and they are better positioned to turn their future around.


The one thing that is clear is that Conroy either has genuinely different definitions of retool vs rebuild, or he is not allowed to call this a rebuild for fear that the season ticket base won't renew. If you listen to his actual definitions, he classifies a rebuild as what we classify as a scorched earth where you trade EVERYTHING that you can and purposefully tank to get the high pick. That's obviously not what is being done here (which is good news IMO).



What we call a retool is changing out a core piece or two, no? Maybe keeping the core, but making some larger change to the periphery than what you normally expect from the season-to-season changes. Gaudreau and Tkachuk out, Huberdeau, Weegar and Kadri in was what I personally call a retool - and that's a big retool.



Toffoli, Zadorov, Lindholm, Hanifin and Tanev for primarily futures and young players, with a necessary cap dump in Kuzmenko who was in the coach's doghouse all year in Vancouver and who is doing well in Calgary, is basically a textbook example of a rebuild, no? In fact, that's a huge sell-off, and larger than most teams that enter into rebuilds accomplish in one season.



Conroy isn't going to say that this is a rebuild until at least the Flames are halfway through, or until apathy sets in and he gets to bring the rebuild word out to try and get people excited again.



I guess we can all believe and interpret things how we want to. Guess we will see what interpretation is the right one. I just think if you base your information off of crap like Twitter where it is more sound-bites aimed at driving traffic (clickbait!), then you are more inclined to believe "Playoffs! Let's go!". If you listen to complete interviews, I think Conroy makes himself fairly clear without explicitly stating it. I guess we will see if I am out to lunch, but unless most of the players on the team all take a giant step forward, this team is probably going to bottom out in the bottom 5 somewhere this year, and this will end up being the best thing moving forward, especially if they manage to do so in the best environment possible (like when they drafted 4th overall - they didn't get many wins, but they weren't a terrible team - this is the model that Conroy is wanting to have during this period).

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And why do you think Chicago, Anahiem wont add FA's and be able to both outbid the Flames and have a more desireable location? (SJ I think is a long way off)

I actually fail to see how this team isnt bottom 5 next year. Almost all the other bottom 8 teams and younger, improving and in a better cap situation. Why would they not improve faster then the Flames?

I was pointing to those teams this year as examples of what bottom-feeding rosters look like. The Flames roster next season won’t be anything close to as bad.

As for next season, Anaheim will likely take a step. Chicago and SJ will still be awful, and deliberately so. They’re still in full tank mode.

Columbus will likely still be bad. I don’t see Montreal taking a big step - most of their best prospects are d-man and will take time to develop. Arizona is still not ready to make a big jump unless they take a big shot in free agency.

Then there are teams like Washington, NYI, and Minnesota who could see big drops in the standings. The Torts effect may wear off in Philly. I think the Kraken will continue to fall to earth after their surprising debut. Those are the teams the Flames will likely find itself in the mix with next season.

It’s actually pretty difficult to be a bottom five team in this league unless ownership and management are committed to tanking. And I just don’t see that happening with this franchise.

Here’s how I’d handicap next season:

Bottom tier

SJ
CHI
CBJ
MTL
SEA

Non-playoff

ANA
ARI
CGY
WAS
MIN
PHI
OTT
PIT

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

None of those guys are going to make a meaningful enough impact to get the Flames into the playoffs.

There isn't one single guy on the planet that could do that, too many holes to plug. The point is to find guys that could flourish somewhere else and turn into key players for the team. And I'm sure there are a lot more potential breakout candidates out there, identifying them is the key part.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Saqe

There isn't one single guy on the planet that could do that, too many holes to plug. The point is to find guys that could flourish somewhere else and turn into key players for the team. And I'm sure there are a lot more potential breakout candidates out there, identifying them is the key part.

That's the thing.

What will these players cost? 1st? some 2nds?

None of them are worth it at this point, and we are in a deficit once again, and can't fill those holes.

I would rather make our picks, we have a better chance on hitting those.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

That's the thing.

What will these players cost? 1st? some 2nds?

None of them are worth it at this point, and we are in a deficit once again, and can't fill those holes.

I would rather make our picks, we have a better chance on hitting those.

Sure but aren't we talking about how Conroy is probably doing the opposite? That he will use some of these picks. It comes down to how much they trust their pro scouts. And yeah it's most likely going to cost something significant but lets not play checkers.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Sure but aren't we talking about how Conroy is probably doing the opposite? That he will use some of these picks. It comes down to how much they trust their pro scouts. And yeah it's most likely going to cost something significant but lets not play checkers.

No 1 person said he is going to make trades and try to push into the playoffs.

I don't see any scenario that Conroy spends multiple premium picks on a 3rd liner Kotkaniemi or Kakko.

I would bet on us using all our picks, and if any picks are traded it is to trade up.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The most similar team to the Flames to me is the Jets. Except we don't have a Schiefele or an elite goalie if Markstrom is gone. And they have a lot more talent than us and depth.

That is another team where management refused to rebuild. And it will be many years of first round exits as a result. They are not bad enough to miss playoffs but not good enough to win anything.

I am hoping management will be patient, but I am sure the ownership wants playoffs ASAP, even if it means another decade of playoff 1st round losses and mediocrity.

Winnipeg is a pretty good team, just ran into what most people consider the SC favourites.

The Flames are not an app comparison.

[SilverKast]

I read an interesting article (on the Athletic I think?) where they related that the most proven method of NFL draft success was trading back in the draft and accumulating more picks. Given that there are more players on the field at once, and a lot more positions, not sure if this would also work in the NHL?

They said that even though teams know this is what works best, they're reluctant to do so because no one wants the possibility of losing out on the shiny new toy of a high draft pick. Even though trading back results in higher probabilities of drafting multiple productive players and produces a much stronger talent base. That and the fact that a lot of players just don't turn out, so having more bullets in the chamber sort of thing.

I'd sure prefer the Flames to keep their picks, and accumulate more to build up a strong talent base. Not sure about the trading back and getting more picks thing though - I'm still not sure it would translate in the NHL like the NFL.

But we definitely need to build up our talent. When I look at our team and it's overall prospects I don't see anything that screams contender. If they want to continue to be a mediocre team that's fine, but at least don't pretend otherwise. It seems like Conroy wants to build it up, but it will take a few years to get a good read on their actions.

Fingers crossed!

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

I read an interesting article (on the Athletic I think?) where they related that the most proven method of NFL draft success was trading back in the draft and accumulating more picks. Given that there are more players on the field at once, and a lot more positions, not sure if this would also work in the NHL?

They said that even though teams know this is what works best, they're reluctant to do so because no one wants the possibility of losing out on the shiny new toy of a high draft pick. Even though trading back results in higher probabilities of drafting multiple productive players and produces a much stronger talent base. That and the fact that a lot of players just don't turn out, so having more bullets in the chamber sort of thing.

I'd sure prefer the Flames to keep their picks, and accumulate more to build up a strong talent base. Not sure about the trading back and getting more picks thing though - I'm still not sure it would translate in the NHL like the NFL.

But we definitely need to build up our talent. When I look at our team and it's overall prospects I don't see anything that screams contender. If they want to continue to be a mediocre team that's fine, but at least don't pretend otherwise. It seems like Conroy wants to build it up, but it will take a few years to get a good read on their actions.

Fingers crossed!

NFL is a little different because players are fully developed for the most part (age 20-23 or older). The chance of a total bust, I'd guess is less.

But I do think more picks overall is a good thing. Trading back probably depends where. Example, when the Oilers traded back in the 2003 draft, they essentially traded Parise for Marc-Antoine Pouliot and J-F Jacques. Or 2008, Coyotes traded 36th overall for 46th overall and a 3rd rounder which ended up being trading Roman Josi for Colby Robak and Mathieu Brodeur.

But it goes the other way, too. Anaheim trading 22nd overall to Toronto for 30th and 39th which ended up being Rickard Rackell and John Gibson for Tyler Biggs.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

I read an interesting article (on the Athletic I think?) where they related that the most proven method of NFL draft success was trading back in the draft and accumulating more picks. Given that there are more players on the field at once, and a lot more positions, not sure if this would also work in the NHL?

They said that even though teams know this is what works best, they're reluctant to do so because no one wants the possibility of losing out on the shiny new toy of a high draft pick. Even though trading back results in higher probabilities of drafting multiple productive players and produces a much stronger talent base. That and the fact that a lot of players just don't turn out, so having more bullets in the chamber sort of thing.

I'd sure prefer the Flames to keep their picks, and accumulate more to build up a strong talent base. Not sure about the trading back and getting more picks thing though - I'm still not sure it would translate in the NHL like the NFL.

But we definitely need to build up our talent. When I look at our team and it's overall prospects I don't see anything that screams contender. If they want to continue to be a mediocre team that's fine, but at least don't pretend otherwise. It seems like Conroy wants to build it up, but it will take a few years to get a good read on their actions.

Fingers crossed!

I think the key difference is in the NFL draft is, you usually get players that are ready to contribute in later rounds from day 1. You usually have a QB coming off a rookie pay scale that has been paid, now you need talent on cheap contracts.

The NHL is more draft and develop. It's easier to trade back when your roster already has stars on it, and you are creating a new cycle of players to take spots of vets in a few years once they are priced out.

Tampa spent a lot of draft capital on on Goodrow and Coleman. It was worth it, but those guys played so well that Tampa couldn't afford them and they didn't have any talent to take over. So they went shopping again and wasted picks on a Tanner Jeanot.

Now they have a depleted prospect base, with a roster that is aging out and not much to spend in terms of money.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Winnipeg is a pretty good team, just ran into what most people consider the SC favourites.

The Flames are not an app comparison.

Flames and Jets are 100% comparable. Sure maybe not this version of the Flames that has sold and is retooling, but overall over the last 5-6 years they are very comparable.

The Jets and Flames were very similar from 18-19 to 22-23. Flames have deviated from that path (mostly forced since guys left) and the Jets guys re-signed so they've stayed on that path.

Neither team had great top end elite talent , both teams were very inconsistent and generally alternated good season and bad, and neither had any meaningful playoff success.

Even with the Flames bad season this year, the overall results the last 6 seasons are very similar.

18-19 to 23-24 Regular Season:

Flames: .579 (526 points)
Jets: .589 (536 points)

18-19 to 23-24 Playoffs:
Flames: .407 (11 wins in 27 GP)
Jets: .321 (9 wins in 28 GP)

It will be interesting to see how things go moving forward. The Jets committed to Scheifele, Hellebuyck long term...where the Flames were forced to move on from their similar aged guys.

This Jets team this year was no more a contender than the Flames were in 18-19 or 21-22.

Jets playoff performance has been quite poor...since they swept the Oilers in 20-21 they have 2 wins in their last 14 playoff games.