Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The whole boat aid idea was horrible from start to end. To claim this was an aid mission is a bold faced lie. This was an attempt to push through a blockade and make a political statement. Please call it like it is. And what panic are you talking about? There were 100 to 200 people on board the boat, a few soldiers fired on the crowd to save their skin. I would imagine what 'panic' would look like, the aftermath would be similar to what the US helicopter gunship did when it unloaded on the van. Modern weapons, specifically the kind Israeli engineers attach to helicopters, would have left zero survivors. If someone panicked, that would have been the end result.

I think discussion of the events is interesting, and I don't think anyone here thinks this was not a series of events that ended in a tragic manner. I do think that your rhetoric is over the top and you want to vilify Israel.

I totally agree with this post. They knew this was going to happen. In fact, they even said that they are going to sail no matter what and make Israel stop them. They knew what the immediate media reaction was going to be like, and even though the "impartial probe" will probably absolve Israel, they've already won in the court of public opinion because of everyone that just jumps to conclusions.

I have a hard time believing that if it was truly an aid ship, that they needed to arm themselves with pipes and bash in the head of a commando that obviously did not start shooting first.

[burn_this_city]

They've put Israel in a really bad spot now. They managed to suck them into attacking ships flying flags of NATO countries. Israel stands to lose a lot of public support over this. If Turkey calls on NATO to respond some of Israel's strongest allies will be in quite a bind. The whole flottila was designed to elicit a response. Its suceeded to do that, and now their own indiscriminant heavy handed policies will come back to bite them.

[SeeBass]

i will go back to my original thought (that somebody thought I was clueless)

It was a big set up. Hamas supporters got the outcome they were hoping for...world wide condemnation.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

i will go back to my original thought (that somebody thought I was clueless)

It was a big set up. Hamas supporters got the outcome they were hoping for...world wide condemnation.

Oh totally. Israel was played like a fiddle. You can bet the people on the boat provoked the commandos and got exactly the response they were looking for.

Its not like they actually thought they would get the supplies through to Gaza in the first place.

[Chump]

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

Yeah and whose authority were they under? I can assure you that those Israeli warships didn't just decide willy-nilly to attack the ship. They were ordered by the state of Israel to stop the flotilla by any means necessary, and they did so.

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

1. Maybe the Israelis were expecting the people on the Marmara to allow themselves to be boarded as easily as the other ships, and when they encountered unexpected resistance they panicked and started shooting? Its hard to say the Israelis weren't itching for a fight when they send a helicopter full of commandos for a night-raid against a ship of civilians on an aid mission.

2. There are many degrees of force available to a military. You've seen the world-wide condemnation of Israel's actions already, can you imagine the response if they had just blown the ships out of the water? They would instantly turn into a pariah-state and would be shunned by the entire international community. The Israelis may be crazy, but they ain't that stupid.

This seems like a little bit of a contradiction to me...

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Have you ever lived in a non-"civilized" nation to judge so adamantly? Have you ever been in the shoes of the non-"Western"ers to form an opinion of their circumstances and conditions they live in on a daily basis? If your answers are no to both of the above, I suggest you look closer at how ignorant your statements have been and how much you have to learn about life beyond the bubble that is North America. This is exactly the backwards attitude that will propagate misunderstandings and forever propel this world into a never-ending conflict.

Of course I have - I was born in a non-Western nation. I admitted I was prejudiced - I have yet to see any reason to change my opinion.

[transplant99]

All I know is even if I feel my boat has been boarded unneccessarily by armed military who identify themselves and their reasons for doing so, I am not going to start cranking them upside the head with a crowbar....as the end result simply wont be very good for me or those around me.

Instead i would suggest they look around, answer any questions they may have about whatever it is they find they dont like, then move on.

So many sayings are appropriate here, but I think the most poignant would be...

"If you grab the bull by the horns".....

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by transplant99

All I know is even if I feel my boat has been boarded unneccessarily by armed military who identify themselves and their reasons for doing so, I am not going to start cranking them upside the head with a crowbar....as the end result simply wont be very good for me or those around me.

Instead i would suggest they look around, answer any questions they may have about whatever it is they find they dont like, then move on.

So many sayings are appropriate here, but I think the most poignant would be...

"If you grab the bull by the horns".....

Legally they were still within their rights to fight back against the incursion. The Israelis commited an act of war on turkish vessels, thats how the entire thing will be viewed in international courts. Not the smartest move, but they knew what they were doing.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Legally they were still within their rights to fight back against the incursion. The Israelis commited an act of war on turkish vessels, thats how the entire thing will be viewed in international courts. Not the smartest move, but they knew what they were doing.

I don't beleive they were Turkish vessels techincally. As in they technically were not flying under a Turkish flag.

The naval laws are also quite murky when it comes to boarding ships. The ships were in international waters but also within Israel's Exclusive Economic Zone.

If this is taken as an illegal act, it would set a precedent that no country can board a ship until they are within their 20 mile zone. Countries like the US, UK, Canada, Russia, etc... all have blockades in existence well beyond their 20 mile zone, and have in the past boarded ships outside of that zone.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't beleive they were Turkish vessels techincally. As in they technically were not flying under a Turkish flag.

The naval laws are also quite murky when it comes to boarding ships. The ships were in international waters but also within Israel's Exclusive Economic Zone.

If this is taken as an illegal act, it would set a precedent that no country can board a ship until they are within their 20 mile zone. Countries like the US, UK, Canada, Russia, etc... all have blockades in existence well beyond their 20 mile zone, and have in the past boarded ships outside of that zone.

According to quite a few articles the various ships flew Turkish, Greek, and Irish flags. The stormed vessel was flying a Turkish flag. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

According to quite a few articles the various ships flew Turkish, Greek, and Irish flags. The stormed vessel was flying a Turkish flag. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I read that some of the ships were flying Turkish flags, but that one wasn't. You may be right though.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

I would call a nighttime military raid by commandos in which 19 people were killed an "attack" wouldn't you? If the Israelis hadn't stepped foot on the ship, they never would have been within striking distance of those clubs.

The boat was attempting to get through the blockade.

Boarding it was routine procedure.

[CaptainCrunch]

You see, I have a lot of problems with the Turkish flag thing. To me, its not the act of a friend (And Turkey is suppossed to be a friend of Israel), to allow the use of their flag or their flag registered boat to run a declared blockade. Turkey if they allowed this or gave permission for this, really stuck their nose in where it doesn't belong.

To me its fairly clear that this is a media effort by Palastine and particularly Hammas. They knew that they could try to run the blockade and when Israel interdicted they could run screaming to the press as usual. If Israel had stepped aside because of the media attention and let those boats through then they would open yet another way to get weapons through.

I get tired of the whole International Law debate. To me International Law ends when it effects the security of my nation. To me, Israel has a right to inspect those ships for possible weapons smuggling, since Hamas especially have shown that their very astute in keeping thier members heavily armed.

If this was about getting humanitarian aid in, then they could have coordinated through Israel who regularly ships in aid, or Egypt who also blockades but works to bring in Aid or even the UN.

I get why Ireland is pissed about their 7 civilians, but they were on a boat who's crew assaulted IDF soldiers, until their roles in this are acertained, there's no way that Israel should let them go.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

I don't seek to vilify Israel. Its actions vilify itself.

Its actions were a direct response to a ship attempting to run a blockade they've had in place since 2007. A blockade run by Israel AND Egypt.

Their response was routine. Every single country in the whole world would do the same thing. If the protesters would have been peaceful, nothing would have happened.

You know, which did have on 5 other boats. Strange that everyone is missing that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

An interesting take on the legal position of the attack, in regards to it taking place in international waters.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archiv...gal_posit.html

lol.

You actually think Israel gives a flying rats ass what the international community deems 'illegal?'

Until the international community can get Hamas from attacking Israel on a daily basis with rockets, from sending suicide bombers into Tel Aviv, and a whole slew of other things, Israel will continue to do what they think is necessary to protect their country.

Fact is Israel has come to the table numerous times before for peace agreements, and every single time Hamas or some other terrorist scumbag group has broken the agreement or refused to offer terms that can be agreed upon.

And yet somehow in all of that Israel gets blamed.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I get tired of the whole International Law debate. To me International Law ends when it effects the security of my nation. To me, Israel has a right to inspect those ships for possible weapons smuggling, since Hamas especially have shown that their very astute in keeping thier members heavily armed.

The whole international law debate is beyond tiring. Anyone who has ever taken even an entry level course in international law knows the entire thing is unsettled and the laws are anything but precise.

International law is just an extension of international relations, in general. If a boat is within your EEZ and declared that it is intends to head into your waters with random cargo, there may not technically be a law allowing you to board the ship, but there isn't one that says you can't do it either.

Naval laws in general are wide open. Canada even managed to give manipulate the "law" to give themselves authority to board a ship outside their EEZ in 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbot_War

Basically every international law breaks down to this: Don't take unecessary military measures....unless you feel you have to. The laws can be easily manipulated in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to show that either is right. In other words it's a waste of time.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You see, I have a lot of problems with the Turkish flag thing. To me, its not the act of a friend (And Turkey is suppossed to be a friend of Israel), to allow the use of their flag or their flag registered boat to run a declared blockade. Turkey if they allowed this or gave permission for this, really stuck their nose in where it doesn't belong.

To me its fairly clear that this is a media effort by Palastine and particularly Hammas. They knew that they could try to run the blockade and when Israel interdicted they could run screaming to the press as usual. If Israel had stepped aside because of the media attention and let those boats through then they would open yet another way to get weapons through.

I get tired of the whole International Law debate. To me International Law ends when it effects the security of my nation. To me, Israel has a right to inspect those ships for possible weapons smuggling, since Hamas especially have shown that their very astute in keeping thier members heavily armed.

If this was about getting humanitarian aid in, then they could have coordinated through Israel who regularly ships in aid, or Egypt who also blockades but works to bring in Aid or even the UN.

I get why Ireland is pissed about their 7 civilians, but they were on a boat who's crew assaulted IDF soldiers, until their roles in this are acertained, there's no way that Israel should let them go.

Storming the ship and killing 9 Turks certainly isnt an act of friendship either. You can't storm a ship in international waters and shoot the crew when they try to repel the attack. They've shown more than once in the last year that they'll disregard the interests of their allies to achieve their objectives.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

They've put Israel in a really bad spot now. They managed to suck them into attacking ships flying flags of NATO countries. Israel stands to lose a lot of public support over this. If Turkey calls on NATO to respond some of Israel's strongest allies will be in quite a bind. The whole flottila was designed to elicit a response. Its suceeded to do that, and now their own indiscriminant heavy handed policies will come back to bite them.

What exactly is Turkey or NATO going to do? There is only one country in that region with nuclear weapons. And just one country with a policy in place saying if their survival is threatened, they will use nuclear weapons.

If the international community has any balls, they will condemn the ships for their acts of stupidity that resulted in a bunch of people being killed, tell the protesters they should have listened to the peaceful resolution they were offered, and work with Israel to fix the reasons the blockade is in place.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Storming the ship and killing 9 Turks certainly isnt an act of friendship either. You can't storm a ship in international waters and shoot the crew when they try to repel the attack. They've shown more than once in the last year that they'll disregard the interests of their allies to achieve their objectives.

Either way, I seriously doubt Turkey is going to stop being 'friends' with Israel over this.

They might have a spat, but both countries need each other in that region to keep everything relatively stable.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Storming the ship and killing 9 Turks certainly isnt an act of friendship either. You can't storm a ship in international waters and shoot the crew when they try to repel the attack. They've shown more than once in the last year that they'll disregard the interests of their allies to achieve their objectives.

Which law specifically did Israel violate? A boat was within it's EEZ, and stated that it intended to brign random cargo into Israel.

I've heard a lot about the illegality of Israel's actions, but have yet to hear which specific law they violated.